Listening Is Noticing — Amelia Thomas (S4 · E27)

Intro music:

Barbara O’Brien: 0:14

Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer, and I'd like to welcome you to The Empathetic Trainer.

Music: 0:20

Barbara O’Brien: 0:25

Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien and welcome back to The Empathetic Trainer podcast. Today I'm talking with Amelia Thomas, author of What Sheep Think About the Weather. It's a thoughtful, funny, and surprisingly practical book about how animals communicate and how much we miss when we're not paying attention. Amelia is a journalist turned farmer who went

looking for answers across science, intuition, and daily life with animals. Now, full disclosure, I talked with her while she was writing the book, and somehow my phrase, “happy them up”, became a chapter title, and I feel oddly honored. This conversation is about slowing down, listening better, and letting animals show us who they really are. So, let's get started. Welcome, Amelia.

Amelia Thomas: 1:08

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:09

We're just we're just really glad to have you. I'm going to show everybody your book. Um, hope I don't hopefully everyone can read the title clearly. I love the picture of a Suffolk sheep, which we'll talk about later, but I love the picture of a sheep wearing a a trapper hat. Looks just like if she'd fit into Wisconsin really well. So, which is where we are. And you're in Nova Scotia, so um we're both experiencing winter at the same time.

Amelia Thomas: 1:32

That's right. Yes. Yeah. The the the joys of the joys of frozen ground.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:36

Okay. Well, so I want to just kind of start with a kind of a big picture question. What first made you wonder if animals were trying to tell us something we weren't hearing?

Amelia Thomas: 1:47

You know, over my life, um, even as a child, I was bringing home the animals that didn't have a home or that I found somewhere that were injured. And you know, I I had always had that feeling that um if we listened a bit better, you know, that we would we would um be able to sort of figure out a little bit more about have have an easier relationship between us and the animals that we share our lives with. Um and I have tended to end up with all the animals that nobody else wants. So, you know, like the cats from the street, um, horses that have what humans would many humans would consider behavioral problems, those kind of things. And, you know, those questions sort of built and built inside me, but it always felt like such a huge topic to to dive into for a book, you know, where to start even with with this question. It's so huge. Um, and then the day that we moved into our farm, me thinking that my farming ancestry would sort of give me access to this sort of wonderful like easy knowledge about how to live with the animals around us. And that did not happen at all. I was completely humbled by the fact that everything went wrong and animals escaping and fighting and and behaving in bizarre ways that I couldn't figure out.

Barbara O’Brien: 3:01

Every new farmer everywhere.

Amelia Thomas: 3:04

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 3:05

You're not alone.

Amelia Thomas: 3:06

Well, that's good to hear. So, that was the day that I really started sort of deep diving. I said I'm going to give myself a year and I figured a year would at least it would take a year to you know to go into all these different avenues that that question what are animals trying to say to us humans sort of opens up. Um and yeah and so that's what I did. I spent a year well I mean I'm still doing it but for the for the purposes of the book I spent a sort of a deep diving year and that's that's how we sort of connected and I got to learn from your wisdom. um and lots of other interesting scientists, ethologists, trainers, uh trackers, you know, all these people in all these different different spheres and then managed to sort of bring that somehow together into a coherent narrative.

Barbara O’Brien: 3:50

Oh yeah, no you, you did talk to all kinds of people. Um it's funny, we just before we started, we were talking about how we have a lot of people in common. You've talked to people who have been on my podcast. You've talked to um people who have podcasts that I really admire. And uh so then those are more of the people that are kind of on the intuitive side of of looking into how animals think and feel. And then there's the whole scientific side which is completely fascinating to me. I'm not like that but I admire the work they're doing and the like ah that makes sense or yeah that's that I see that. So, I love how you've combined both things and why your book is interesting and not like a dry what I would think a dry science book and I'd be like oh you know because like you are um sharing your life experiences as you're talking to the people that came I I went and I talked to this person and then this happened on the farm and then I talked to this person and this happened on the farm and you had all these cool adventures and got to go to cool places. So, I'm I kind of think that's wonderful. But it was um it it makes the book a really interesting read because we feel like we're right there with you when you know when you talk about the animals on your farm, I'm like, "Yep, yep, that that's what that's what pigs are like. Yep, that's what horses are like." Uh so it's really relatable. So, it's not a science book but it's not a woo woo book where it's completely woo woo, you know, kind of like out there and like I'm not sure. Someone might be more skeptical. you kind of back up the things that all of your people are saying. You kind of they, you know, you have the references and the backup information there. So, it's pick it up everybody. Go give it a read. If you're into animals, you really need to to check this book out.

Amelia Thomas: 5:27

Oh, thank you. 

Barbara O’Brien: 5:39

Okay. So, I think you sort of said it, but when so, that really kind of stopped being curiosity and then it sort of turned into a book is kind of where we're at, right?

Amelia Thomas: 5:37

That's right. Yeah. Um I I tackled as you're saying science. I'd sort of tackled science first because that was the area that I probably felt well definitely felt most intimidated by. Not a natural scientist but you know all these all these uh kind of concepts of being of listening and what it means and what animals can say um and the ways that they say it and how much they can communicate with humans have their basis in science. So, I felt like it was sort of important to go there first even though it was the most sort of unfamiliar territory for me um to then then sort of build upon that um and turns out that actually it wasn't as intimidating as I thought it would be. The scientists who are working in that field are really really interesting like super passionate.

Barbara O’Brien: 6:21

Oh yeah. Well, they wouldn't be working in it unless they cared about animals. I mean they wouldn't be there. Why you know why why do you care about birds if you aren't interested you know? So, yeah, I can see that. Um it's like like oh my gosh, all these other podcast guests just because they're all so fascinating. Okay. Um well, so apparently in your past you were a travel writer, which is part of why you get to do these cool adventures. So, that that's kind of neat. So in your past life you went from travel writing to farm life. So how did animals change the way you see the world? Because those are kind of two different things.

Amelia Thomas: 6:56

Well, you know, they're not actually that different because um it you know on our travels I worked a lot for Lonely Planet, but I also worked for some magazines.

Barbara O’Brien: 7:04

That's right. You were a contributing writer for Lonely Planet. That's cool.

Amelia Thomas: 7:09

That's right. Yeah. Um and uh we lived for quite a few of the books I wrote. I wrote quite a few books about India, and we lived in a village in India for that time. Um where animals are sort of part of everyday life. So, you know, there are monkeys showing up on your balcony, all kinds of birds around, water buffalo, cattle. Um, it was a rural village where there were there were pigs as well, chickens. Um, and then, you know, there were there were all the sea life that you'd encounter if you went snorkelling, that kind of thing. So, animals were kind of um Oh, and then occasionally an elephant or um you know, animal and we rescued quite a lot of stray puppies and cats there, too. Yeah. So, those two things really sort of went together and I never really went that far away from from sort of this question of like living with um animals when I was traveling. Um I um I wrote a book about a true story about a zoo which kind of came from a newspaper article that I wrote.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:05

And what can you share with the us the name of that book please?

Amelia Thomas: 8:07

Oh yeah, that's called the zoo on the road to Nablus. And that's a kind of a a sort of sad but, you know, weirdly hopeful story about the last um zoo, the last Palestinian zoo. So, it's in the West Bank in in Palestinian territories.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:20

Oh, okay, yeah.

Amelia Thomas: 8:23

Um and then I, you know, I wrote some articles which were really fun for uh sort of magazines about where I got to go riding in the in Belize and in in northern Canada and all kinds of things. So, so animals never I I remember one really wonderful moment when um we were in Jordan and uh in next to uh Petra there's beautiful old ancient uh remains there are um Bedwin uh guys who give pony rides I mean they call them pony rides to to tourists but they're actually their own racehorses. So, they give they you know they're super well trained very very docile. They'll, you know, they'll uh they'll take a small child on their back and lead them around in this beautiful setting and then at the weekends they they're own personal, you know, horses for the kids’ pony.

Barbara O’Brien: 9:08

Racehorse to kids’ pony, you know, of course that's they're Arabians, I assume. So, naturally the temperament can do that,

you know.

Amelia Thomas: 9:15

Absolutely. Yeah. And so, I I said, "Oh, can I could I have a ride?" And he said, "Yes." And I started riding and he said,

"Oh, oh, oh, you can ride." And I said, "Well, yeah, you know, I I'm not a great rider, but yes, I can." And he said, "Oh, off you go then." And so, my children watched me sort of galloping off into the desert. Um so you know that was how travel writing managed to be completely combined with with the animals that I met along the way. So, you know the goal was always to have a farm but um we we both we also like to travel and we still travel a lot for work. So yeah, those two things can can actually live together.

Barbara O’Brien: 9:48

That's cool. Sorry the the new puppy that you can if you're watching the podcast is like bumping my microphone. And I think I have to reverse his position otherwise his nose is right for the noise here.

Amelia Thomas: 9:59

He’s very cute.

Barbara O’Brien: 10:00

He's very his noise his noise is his nose is right in the microphone and we can't have that. So

Amelia Thomas: 10:03

Oh, what's his name?

Barbara O’Brien: 10:05

Oh, um his name is Kipling actually Rudyard Kipling. So, there's our India connection right there.

Amelia Thomas: 10:10

Yes.

Barbara O’Brien:  10:11

He is always ready for adventure.

Amelia Thomas: 10:14

Oh, and another little connection. My sister actually lives right next to Rudyard in England which is where Rudyard Kipling got his name.

Barbara O’Brien: 10:22

Well, Kip is such a great name for a dog. Chip, Kip, Kip. Sounds like Chip, so they always come running. So, um, that's great. Okay. Uh, what surprised you most? Sorry. What surprised you most when you really slowed down and paid attention when it comes to animals?

Amelia Thomas: 10:41

I think probably the biggest surprise that I had was how similar we are into animals that seem nothing like us at all. Um so you know our shared genetic history could be millions of years ago, but we have these commonalities in in even in the most basic terms of sort of feeling pleasure feeling um fear you know those those kind of primal emotions go even as small as fruit flies you know which is quite amazing.

Barbara O’Brien: 11:10

I mean I've heard I've heard from Warrick Schiller actually he said something like well we're all mammals which you know he he had learned like at least the mammals all experience you know things similarly never thought to transfer that to like all living things.

Amelia Thomas: 11:24

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 11:25

You know, this is a fascinating commonality like you're talking about. So.

Amelia Thomas: 11:28

Yeah. And and also, you know, the uh something surprising that I think and and really thrilling that I discovered from talking to a few scientists was that um even these tiny creatures like um you know, a cloned fruit fly will be different from another cloned fruit fly where actually they're supposed to be identical. That's why they cloned them. Um, but brain wiring, you know, uh, which is pretty much just like a chance, you know, it's just a dice roll. How the brain wires itself together when it's being created makes these differences. So, as much as we have these commonalities with creatures that seem nothing like us at all, um, these creatures that look identical also are have individual individual traits that are different from each other. So, you know, those when when you kind of um balance those two things, it just kind of makes you really uh um appreciate even these tiny little creatures that are around us all the time that I think I probably hadn't really appreciated before.

Barbara O’Brien: 12:30

Oh, that's who thinks about fruit flies, right? But someone has and someone studied them. So, pretty cool. All right, let's talk about the book again. Um the title, What Sheep Think About the Weather is Wonderful. What does it mean to you?

Amelia Thomas: 12:45

Well, actually, you're very much connected to that to that title because um we were at a point where uh we have quite a lot of animals that really enjoy rain very much. Uh like we've got a dog who she's a big dog and she she hates rain to the point that you may have to carry her outside when it's raining.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:02

Goodness. Yeah.

Amelia Thomas: 13:03

Oh, yeah. And um we have uh some meadows that um I wanted to um try and figure out what kind of animal would work well in the meadows. Something that we have, you know, we live in rainy places. It's cold all the time most of the year.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:17

Like Wisconsin sometimes.

Amelia Thomas: 13:18

Yeah. And um and so I I didn't want to bring in into the farm anymore animals that really can't stand rain, for example.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:27

Oh, that's funny. Let's see. Must must, you know, must handle rain or whatever. That's funny.

Amelia Thomas: 13:33

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:34

I mean, your prerequisite, you know. So.

Amelia Thomas: 13:35

So, I asked you, you know, what do sheep think about the weather? Cuz as I was thinking, well, maybe we'll add some sheep. Yeah. And so, what sheep think about the weather sort of stuck and uh yeah publishers liked it too and and that that's where the title came from.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:50

Well, if you if you if you happen to look at that chapter um we talked about how the sheep do not seem to mind the rain so much and they don't seem to mind the snow so much unless it's you know terribly cold. But if it's really windy.

Amelia Thomas: 14:01

Yes.

Barbara O’Brien: 14:02

Then the boss sheep, Lady Margaret, says, "Nope, we're all staying in it." Because they have choice to go in or out and she just stands in the doorway and goes, "Nope, too much wind today. Too much wind for now. We're gonna stay in. And I just thought that was interesting. Now, that could be my small flock. I don't know, but mine have a choice. So.

Amelia Thomas: 14:18

I have actually asked some other people and they agree with you.

Barbara O’Brien: 14:20

Okay, good.

Amelia Thomas: 14:21

As I've met some sheep along the way, I've said, "So, is this does this hold true for your sheep?" Yes. It seems to be a universal sheep trait. But I love the fact that Lady Margaret decides for the for the flock. She’s like.

Barbara O’Brien: 14:32

Oh, she's the she's the biggest one, guys. Pop this puppy back in this kennel." So, he's getting a little restless. There we go. He's sitting on the crate on the table right next to me because um Australian terriers are bred to be with you and that's his happy place. So also, excellent ratters and were bred to kill snakes and I thought we could be a useful puppy. I didn't have snakes but anyway. um so back to sheep briefly um because that's what we did talk about besides um animal actors which was really fun to talk about too. But the sheep, we talked about how um how if you're still in quiet, you know, sheep can learn to trust you and then they want to come around and they will communicate with you. And it was very gratifying that after our conversation um and that you had travelled somewhere where there was another flock of sheep and how you practiced the same thing where you sat quietly, this herd did not know you and then they came and they sat down around you and I just thought like, "Oh, that's that's wonderful." I mean, if we all, I happen to love sheep, so you know, anytime anyone is more thoughtful about sheep, it's great. So, anyway, that was just really gratifying to see that it was actually worked with other people. It wasn't just my imagination. So.

Amelia Thomas: 15:39

Yeah, it did. Yeah, I did this this little flock. Um, I didn't know we were staying in an Airbnb and um uh on a farm and yeah, I went outside and followed your advice and what exactly what you said that you do and yeah, it worked. You know, it's I think a lot of um listening better to animals is exactly that, isn't it? It's slowing down.

Barbara O’Brien: 15:57

Any animal. Yeah.

Amelia Thomas: 15:59

Being quiet and then working on their time frame rather than our human time frame, which tends to be much faster. We're like, "Okay, what's going to happen?"

Barbara O’Brien: 16:07

Well, yeah. You know, you you you know this about cats, I'm sure, and so does a lot of our listening audience. uh when you go to a house that has cats and um if you don't like cats, right, you sit in your chair and you're like, "Oh, I don't want that cat to come near me." Okay, he's like, you know, I don't like cats. What does the cat do?

Amelia Thomas: 16:24

Oh, instantly.

Barbara O’Brien: 16:25

He's absolutely going to come near you because you're not giving off the vibe of, I'm going to grab you and pet you and hold you and love you forever and kiss your face. You know, you're you're kind of letting the cat on it. So that's the most fun to watch people who aren't fond of cats be just you know mobbed by cats because they're I mean if they just instead would give off the energy of, like no, you know the cat would stay away but I mean it's so true right so curiosity is such a a universal trait so if we feel safe then we you know everything if we feel safe we can be curious and that's why it's so much fun to train horses and dogs and chickens and other mammals because I'm not familiar I always thought lizards couldn't love so I don't know about training lizards But uh the other animals they're if you let them be curious then and then if we're curious back exactly what your book is about, what are they trying to tell us? I mean, lessons learned, right? That's pretty cool.

Amelia Thomas: 17:18

Yeah, it's very cool. And and you know, anyone who has horses knows um that um exactly what you say, you allow them a little bit of curiosity, you know, allow in the sense that you know, traditionally people were like, "No, you just do what you're told.

Barbara O’Brien: 17:32

Stay in your space.

Amelia Thomas: 17:33

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 17:34

Get out of my space.

Amelia Thomas: 17:35

Yeah. You kind of open up to this curiosity and um and that's where sorts of magic lies in your relationship with with horses especially because they're so you know attuned to all our signals. If we can be as attuned to their signals as they are to ours and then kind of allow that space in between for your you know mutual for fun and curiosity and noticing things then I think that's where you get the that's the one that's where the wonder lies, isn't it?

Barbara O’Brien: 18:00

Yeah. No, I I we all have examples. I'll just do a quick brief one. I have these mares Morgan horses, um, old style Morgan horses, very compact and smaller but solid. Anyway, they came from a ranch in Montana and so they were in wide wide wide-open spaces and the one mare that came was a watcher. Her job was to kind of, you know, is a big herd, 60 horses and just to be aware all the time, you know. So, when she came, she had a lot of anxiety about uh her horizon and anything on the horizon and everything. And uh um when I was growing up, it was like don't let horses get in your space, you know, don't let it nose get close to your face, you know, cuz I mean safety things to be sure. But now, of course, that I understood body language so much more and can read a horse so much better. Thanks to all the things I've been learning from the kind of people you interviewed in your book, um I would come home from working on set all day and I'd smell like 20 dogs, different dogs from all day and and my animal actors and uh because I let her be close and let her she would sniff me from head to toe like who have you been with today and what have you been doing and her curiosity was just amazing and uh you could read her body language that it was no no harm intended and she was felt so much safer that she could check out what all those odd smells were. I mean, we built the relationship on like yes, you can be here and uh you know, it's an ongoing thing, but it's it's horses, as you know, their sense of smell is good, if not better than dogs, and we never thought about that before. So, wow. Right. That was Lucy Lucy Ree's book, I think, about horses’ brains. But yeah, learned a lot from that book, too. Okay. Um, so listening, when you say listening to animals, what does that actually look like?

Amelia Thomas: 19:42

Well, yeah, it's not literal always. I mean, it can be, but listening can be like we just mentioned, you know, looking at the tiny signals like body language. Um, you know, what what people call calming signals in dogs or in horses. So, you know, and Warick Schiller calls stress indicators. So, same sort of thing. looking at, you know, listening. I think in terms of our relationship with animals is just again it comes back down to noticing. So, it can be as subtle as um noticing which direction your dog's eyes are are looking in. You know that that they may be trying well they first of all you know what they're interested in, but also, they may be trying to sort of show you something by the way that they're looking.

Barbara O’Brien: 20:29

Remember Timmy's in the well. Lassie Timmy’s in the well.

Amelia Thomas: 20:32

Yeah. Yeah. I mean exactly it worked for Lassie. Um so you know listening encompasses it can be you know with your ears, but it can also be you know using all your senses. Um so it's it's a very general kind of um term to mean our openness to understanding or trying our best to understand what an animal is trying to sort of communicate to us in whatever way they communicate. So, you know, like um I mentioned in the book that in the 1960s there were all these sort of experiments done with chimps and with parrots where they were really interested in um researchers were very interested in figuring out how much of a human language those animals could could use not just parrot but use. But um but nowadays people are seem you know including science has kind of gone away from that and is much more interested in what how how we can listen into their you know in an inverted common language rather than can they learn ours. So that's a really heartening shift in you know that you see more now in the horse world as well that we're like you said you know it's not like get out of my

space anymore. It's like what you know being curious what does this behavior mean? What are they saying with that? What what what communication or miscommunication is there between us um that's creating that thing that we may think is undesirable like you you know so it's sort of so it's a very long answer to the question that listening is basically just noticing.

Barbara O’Brien: 22:04

Exactly exactly. Well, well let's um we'll delve into science and intuition here. Uh you talked with scientists and more intuitive folks, where do these worlds overlap?

Amelia Thomas: 22:17

There are some amazing overlaps between those two worlds. So, you know on the one hand you might say okay um a scientist is interested in data and in controlled um sort of variables and then um intu somebody working in intuitive realm is the opposite right so you might think they were they were sort of polar opposites, but um actually I spoke to Denise Herzing, she's um a dolphin um researcher she works with wild dolphins in the Caribbean and she was she talked to me uh about how intuition has always played an important part in science and scientists have tended to have their eureka moments uh just just by you know there's this kind of oh I have a feeling that this might be the case or this I feel like this might work and.

Barbara O’Brien: 23:03

Well, yeah, that makes sense.

Amelia Thomas: 23:05

So, so that's one like really important parallel between the two is that scientists actually maybe don't even necessarily recognize that they're using intuition or may do but you know that intuition comes into science and big discoveries um and then I spoke to um with a tracker in um South Africa who works with um San uh tribesmen quite a lot trackers in the Kalahari. And he said his belief is that um tracking you know the art of tracking and like listening to animals through following very subtle signals in nature uh is actually the the origin of what western empirical science because trackers um trailing an animal through um a desert environment or you know you know well not prairie but you know a grassland are using um coming up with um theories and then testing out those theories and changing those theories.

Barbara O’Brien: 24:00

Since the beginning of time really.

Amelia Thomas: 24:03

Yes. Yeah. Gathering data, using that data, extrapolating things from that data.

Barbara O’Brien: 24:08

Yeah, wow.

Amelia Thomas: 24:09

Yeah. So, his his belief is that actually um tracking was the original science. And so, it's it's not the kind of it's not the place of like white coats and you know pipets and buns and burners that we might think.

Barbara O’Brien: 24:22

Cool. All right. Okay. Let's see. Um, well, we I'm just kind of going on my my questions here, but we have that shared story that when you called about the book, which was really fun. Uh, and I and I said that I was really honored that you had the chapter titled Happy Them Up, which is a catchphrase I use uh on set to make sure that animals are happy. And if the animals aren't happy, we don't we don't continue or we don't do it at all or any number of things. And in that chapter, you talk a lot about um do animals experience joy and and uh I have to believe that they do because I mean we've seen our dogs and and our cats in their own way and horses’ exuberance. Um I don't know so much about wild animals because I don't have a lot of experience personally, but I'm sure that you know if they're handled um or left alone probably pretty happy. Um so what what's what's stuck with you about that idea? I mean, as far as animals expressing joy and how do we know, you know?

Amelia Thomas: 25:24

Yeah. You know, there's so many sort of aspects of life that we think of as sort of our human territory, you know, and um the further you kind of go down this this road of of listening to different kinds of animals, um the more you realize, again, coming back to what we were talking about before about these sort of universals. So, I mean, it's sort of I I think I I asked the question, um, when a bird's singing, you know, do they ever sing because they're happy? Um, because I think we we tend to think that we're, you know, we're the ones that that have that that that's our domain, you know, these kind of complex emotions, but joy actually isn't really a complex emotion. It's a fairly sort of profound simple emotion, you know, compared to, I don't know, envy. That's that's a more complex emotion, you know.

Barbara O’Brien: 26:11

Yeah.

Amelia Thomas: 26:12

Um, so if we if animals are feeling beings and we are feeling beings, then it sort of stands to reason that our feelings may be very similar in many ways. And so, I think, you know, why wouldn't an animal feel joy? Why wouldn't an animal enjoy the feeling of sunshine on its skin if it's been cold all night? Um why why wouldn't uh an animal um I I was asking because I again going back to living in India you know the cows the uh sort of free roaming cows used to congregate on the beach at the sun at sunset and so did the people and I always had this feeling like the cows were just enjoying the moment just like we were um and it's funny because your rational brain goes no it's a cow but on the other hand why not you know that's not a complex emotion.

Barbara O’Brien: 26:59

But wouldn't wouldn't skeptics who you know warn people like um you know this is not a a person in a furs suit. This is a real, you know, this is an animal. He's not going to he can't feel shame, you know, or he can't feel whatever, you know, like they what's the word? Anthrop?

Amelia Thomas: 27:16

Anthropomorphizing. Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 27:17

Thank you.

Amelia Thomas: 27:18

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 27:19

For pronouncing that big word. Um, you know, especially when I was younger, you know, that was that was a thing like, you know, they don't feel this, they don't feel that. No, I mean, true. Like a puppy can't be naughty. He's being a puppy. You know, he's doing what puppy. So, I don't you don't get upset with them for like it was on purpose. You know that's silly. I mean they're animals, right? Um no more than a toddler does things on purpose. So, I think the mammals are related there. But how do you push back against, or you know what what where's the balance there that where we're not putting things on them that do not belong on them. I mean there's still animals but but I agree. I mean, I think yes, of course, they feel I mean, look at lambs jumping around in a pasture, you know, or baby goats. I mean, I've never seen anything happier than baby kids bouncing on little leg. And you'll see you'll see other animals like baby foxes or, you know, anything that's young and energetic in the sunshine. You know, they look happy. No, nothing's threatening them at the moment, you know. So, the safety safety and happiness, which is for every living thing, go hand in hand. What's your thoughts on that?

Amelia Thomas: 28:24

Yeah. Um because we still see even adult our adult horses will play, you know, a group of gildings will run around and play together. Um yeah, it's it's sort of thorny territory, isn't it? Anthropomorphizing because it isn't frowned upon as much in science as it used to be. So, for example um Jane Goodall when she started her career uh when she went and researched the first chimps um in the wild and came back and she wrote um a science paper and she gave them names and in to differentiate them in the science paper and the the professors were like you cannot give these chimps names. They're not individuals they're just chimps. So, you know obviously we've moved on from that you know um uh we think of those chimps now as individuals in a in a complex society. Um, as far as it goes, you know, as shame or something like that goes, yeah, those are complicated emotions that require sort of, I would say, a certain sort of mental gymnastics that humans are very good at.

Barbara O’Brien: 29:24

Talk about our prefrontal cortex versus other animals.

Amelia Thomas: 29:26

Yes, absolutely. Um, but you know, the feeling of um, going back to joy, the feeling of feeling happy about something is not really a complex emotion. It's just that you know we can feel happy for almost no reason or without thinking very much you know. So is the is a cow on the beach in India thinking oh you know what makes me happy are those beautiful bands of purple that are mixing with the orange in the sun. No but is the cow experiencing a feeling of contentment uh that may be akin to what we're feeling on the beach as well. If we're not sort of focused on looking at the beauty of the sky, then yes I think so. So, uh you know like everything it's sort of a question of degrees. Um but you know uh the the fruit fly researcher he's an Oxford University uh professor neurob biology professor and he told me that fruit flies experience dopamine rushes. So, as we do so you know even on this very chemical level that is the that's sort of the bringer of the feeling of joy. It's sort of a chemical cocktail in our in our brains and bodies. And so, you know if the fruit fly also receives a dopamine rush or a bumblebee from eating from, you know, from a pleasant taste, then there's a commonality there that that's really, you know, to um to sort of deny that commonality is a little bit sort of they they cart, you know, where there's us and there's them and and there and you know, automatons and we're the only ones that think and feel and and we have moved on from that.

Barbara O’Brien: 30:57

Yeah. There's there's been a lot more um people like Dr. Susan Fay who you spoke with and other people um who talk about how horses especially horses because you know that's what I'm really interested in too uh don't like in congruency which means if we show up with our body um saying one thing and our brain saying another horse goes something's not completely whole with you therefore I'm going to be a little worried because you're not presenting like your body is saying I'm not afraid and I can do this and blah blah blah and your brain is going well the last time I fell off I broke my pelvis this and you know I'm coming back now and I'm scared blah blah. Um and the horse goes do we need to be worried about something? And it just kind of builds and builds. So, they're they may not be bringing those feelings on themselves but they reflect or do you agree that maybe they reflect what we're feeling and that you know uh certainly I mean yeah it's like every every group you know for instance you're walking in the woods and the birds start to call blah blah blah something going on an alert your body goes what are we looking for? At least if you're aware.

Amelia Thomas: 31:59

Absolutely.

Barbara O’Brien: 32:00

So, I think there's been this relationship for a long time which is why you know dogs are so wonderful because bark bark bark and of course somebody's out there alarm you know or whatever. So, for so I think it's much more complicated and deeper and long-lasting than we've ever imagined.

Amelia Thomas: 32:14

Yeah, I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. Like um I was thinking about this the other day. So, my when my um husband is out for the evening, let's say the kids are either in bed or or they're out, you know, at a friend's house. Um the dogs will always be on extra alert. Um and so they'll bark at what I I can't see anything outside. You I'll go and have a look. There's nothing around. But um how do they know to bark on those evenings when he's away traveling for work or something like that as opposed to an evening where he's just off to the gym, you know? And yeah, and so, um, it's sort of similar to how we might feel, um, this is sort of how I explained, um, in very basic terms of the basics of animal communication. I think Kerri Lake explained this to me uh to people who don't really understand how that works or are interested is that if you've ever had the experience where someone walks into the room from or walks into home, walks in through the door, closes the door and from across the room or even the next room, you kind of know that there's either that maybe they're in a bad mood or that something's wrong.

Barbara O’Brien: 33:22

Yeah.

Amelia Thomas: 33:23

Before you ever speak, before you even see them sometimes you just sort of feel.

Barbara O’Brien: 33:26

Even children can do that for sure. You know.

Amelia Thomas: 33:28

Um and that's something we share again with the animal world like you said you know um a horse will um recognize in congruency and we may recognize not that I mean in that case it's not even in congruency it's just recognizing a feeling and so yeah I think animals are great at doing that that's a survival mechanism for them it's a survival mechanism that's built in for us like you said with the example of walking through uh a wood and hearing a bird call an alarm call versus a song. Um yeah, so again you know what I love about this is there's all these levels of um of commonality that we do share with species and ways in which we can connect which isn't just like oh what are they saying in words? What are we saying in words?

Barbara O’Brien: 34:12

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's um I think it's just deeper than we we've even thought about which is why your book's so fascinating. So, highly highly recommend. Okay. And we just spoke about my other question was why do animal why do you think animals respond so strongly to emotional tone? But I think we just covered that. So that's good. Okay. So, for someone with just a dog or a cat, what's one small way that you've learned about uh to listen better?

Amelia Thomas: 34:38

I think my favorite way to listen better to your cat or a dog. Um, and something I did try is, and you may feel silly when you do it, but it's still really fun to do is um a Professor Alexander Horowitz, who's um a K9 behavior um researcher. She told me, uh, you have to remember, and of course we know this, but it's another one of these sort of underestimated things. You have to remember that their point of view, the way they see and experience the world is not the same as ours. So, for example, like you said with with uh horses, but applies to dogs, dogs sort of see the world nose first rather than sight first. You know, they've got just this incredible sense of smell. So, she said best thing to do to get a kind of feeling of um how to communicate better with your animal first. Try and see the world from their point of view. So, that can be physical, like getting down on your hands and knees and crawling around the house and following your dogs who will look very surprised and suspicious about what you're doing and just sort of because things sound different from their point of view, from their physical point of view, you know, things may smell different, things look different.

Barbara O’Brien: 35:48

Well, that's why Yeah, exactly. No, that's really good point. Like when talking to the sheep, you get low instead of hovering over them, you know? So that makes perfect sense.

Amelia Thomas: 35:56

Yeah. And it works definitely with cats and dogs, too. I It's a great starting point. Um, obviously we can't we can't project ourselves into how it is to be a dog because we're not a dog, but we can kind of that's a nice like starting point. And at the very least, your dog's going to sort of appreciate that you're wandering around. They they'll I did it a lot with sniffing around things because of course with them having these amazing sense of smell and something I found with that which was really interesting is actually we can smell uh things a lot more than we kind of expect that we can because I think you know most humans if you ask them which sense could you do without if you had to give up one of your of your senses which one it would it be and many people would say oh sense of smell I don't I don't use my sense of smell that much.

Barbara O’Brien: 36:42

I don't know how you eat otherwise but okay.

Amelia Thomas: 36:43

Right true. I think maybe people don’t even recognize it when you've got a cold things don't taste as much, but um actually we smell we can smell a lot more things than we think we can. So, if you wander around the house on your hands and knees with your dog sniffing at things, you you you'll feel silly, but um but it does give you a great perspective on their world. So, uh that's my first tip. And then the second one would just be to slow down and uh not be saying sit, stay, but just just hang out. Just hang out and notice what they notice and notice what they're interested in.

Barbara O’Brien: 37:18

That's very calming for horses, too, you know. Um.

Amelia Thomas: 37:20

Yeah. Well, we do it a lot with horses, don't we? Just sort of standing around just apparently doing nothing. But actually, that is doing more than almost anything you could do.

Barbara O’Brien: 37:29

Well, yeah. No, that's um a funny thing you about the sniffing because you reminded me um I have this new puppy and um I bring him to set with me um because he gets socialized and he learns and he's already had several shoots, so you know, good boy. Um, but you know, being a a terrier, which is different than herding dogs, I'm learning um because I'm learning all about terriers. Uh, he I couldn't get him to do a down. You know, he's old enough to understand the concept. And I don't force train. So, I wasn't going to like jerk him down and make him stay there. Like, that has to be his idea. And I was having trouble getting him to like grasp the concept of like, you know, we're going to lay down because he he would do everything but lay down. And I was using a treat to lure him in the normal things, right? and um one of the art directors who um um has Dachshund and is familiar with um the breeder that I got my Australian terrier from and and and shows her dogs and stuff. So, she's a dog person. She said, "You have to play with him. You have to make it a game." And I'm like, "Well, everything I do is a game, otherwise we're not going to do it. It's got to be fun." And she goes, "No, here." She literally got down on the ground with him and she did a real fast like boom threw herself down in the shape of a dog like she would and he looked at her and she said come on let's go down and then he went like this is great and he laid down like like that like like the energy she gave of like how much fun is it to go down and do this game and then I was able to quickly shape this is the action I want you know here's the treat and now he like boom flies down. But even though I've been an animal trainer for a long time, right, and I'm evolving and hopefully getting better and more thoughtful all the time, you know, it was mind-blowing for her to go model it for him. Isn't that funny? you know, no, I can't model chasing a ball so much and you know, some of the other actions he's going to do, but I was blown away by how simple it was and how the terrier went like, ah, you know, and uh growing up with horses, um the woman that I that mentored me and I was around the horses with said, "Don't ever crawl through a fence because the horse will learn how to do it crawling through the through the wires and through the f like I he can't fit through there. No, but he's watching you, you know?" And so, like when they're learning about new objects, how we react around the new object is also how they learn to react around the new object. I mean they are watching us just like children. They're watching us all the time.

Amelia Thomas: 39:47

Yeah, absolutely. That's you know animals learn from watching others. Also, in the wild I mean that would make sense that you learn from watching what your parent animal is doing or what your siblings are trying out and what they're what what happens if they you know are they going to tumble down the bank if they play here or I'm thinking like with foxes and things like that. So yeah, it would make sense and and it is something fun to try if like I like playing with the horses and teaching tricks. That's kind of fun.

Barbara O’Brien: 40:13

Yeah, sure. I think they enjoy it too.

Amelia Thomas: 40:15

Yeah. And if you can't sort of explain what you're doing with, like you were saying with shaping or with a kind of sort of more conventional methods that you're aware of, it doesn't hurt to just try it yourself and, you know, spin around and then and see if that that's something that that works because I I've noticed that um one of our horses will watch what we're doing and then we'll try it himself without the treats, without the the cues. He'll just be like, "Oh, is that you know, is that what she's trying to do?". Without, you know, just by watching me interacting with a different horse. So, yeah, that's also very cool, isn't it? It's just to sort of try and and if you if you know that that's how terriers learn in your in that case, then that yeah, that's useful information that you can then that's how they see the world, then you can apply that when you're teaching other things. And yeah, it's it's beneficial for sure.

Barbara O’Brien: 41:04

It was it was a lot of fun. And he's willing he's different smart than the border collie. I mean, they're just different smart. It's, you know, you said you have a terrier yourself, a bull terrier and that, you know, a clever dog and different and boy does, it's like cats. It has to be his idea, you know. So, it's just so much fun because the border collie and my collie mix, he's a rough collie mix. It's like they're trained. I mean, they're bred to be like, I want to be part of your team and be intuitive and I'm going to always watch your mood and I'm going to just do with you. And the terrier is completely different. Like, I want to be with you, but I have some ideas. I have opinions. Uh I was learning about him and when he complained in his crate learning how to be crate trained and it was very vocal you know he's not suffering, he's arguing. And I thought that was so it just reframed it for me because a border colleague will never argue she would die first before she like argues with me like well of course we're going to do no he's you know but I love it about him I mean fun that I mean so yeah even in same species you know different personalities.

Amelia Thomas: 42:07

Oh, absolutely Yes. I always think that with with our um bull terrier when when I'm teaching her something, I have to think about the I imagine that she's saying, “and why?”

Barbara O’Brien: 42:17

Why, oh very much so with the why.

Amelia Thomas: 42:20

Why are we learning this? What what what not not necessarily what's in it for me, but what's the point of this? So, um yeah, it's a totally different way of. Oh, I've had Daxons, too, and they were very similar.

Barbara O’Brien: 42:31

Yeah. Yeah. That's fun. Yeah. All right. Um so, as we look back on all this, this has been a fun conversation. How has this changed the way you live with animals now?

Amelia Thomas: 42:43

I'm much slower. You know, I've learned to slow down, be patient, and not as results focused as I think I used to be when in terms of like training animals. Um I am noticing this is also something that we talked about, but the commonalities and and the within, you know, within across species lines. Um but then also these tiny individual differences between we did some funny, very rudimentary um and very kind uh experiments with earwigs on the farm to see if they had different personalities and uh you know they a definition of personality is that you would behave in a similar way over different context.

Barbara O’Brien: 43:26

Define what an earwig is for unfamiliar.

Amelia Thomas: 43:26

So, an earwig is just a little sort of bug with two pincers on the front. Um they have this kind of bad reputation because people think of them as just because of their name. There's old wife’s tales about them crawling into your ears and.

Barbara O’Brien: 43:40

Right, did you see my face and go like.

Amelia Thomas: 43:42

Yeah. And it's not true. It's not true. It's they were actually named. They think they were named that because of the the pincers are similar in shape to um part of our inner ear. So yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 43:50  

Okay, so about the earwigs. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I just wanted to define.

Amelia Thomas: 43:55

We did these uh uh very basic kind of experiments based on um experiments that a cockroach researcher that I chatted with does and um to see whether these apparently identical earwigs would behave uh identically or whether if we you know one would do something specific and then we would change sort of the circumstances and see if that one would still do the same kind of thing. Yeah, you know, this in a in a very sort of basic non-scientific experiments that we did at home, um that that was the case. So, uh I've noticed now I noticed um individual uh differences in species. So, even in flies that get stuck in your kitchen, you'll notice that they don't all behave exactly the same. And.

Barbara O’Brien: 44:39

Wow, on that level, I mean, to notice things on that level, it's pretty cool.

Amelia Thomas: 44:41

It's fun. It's actually useful because if you notice it with flies that are stuck in the kitchen, it's much easier to catch them to put them outside. If you notice the that one, you know, bangs itself against the window again and again and again, whereas another one sort of just lazily circles, that that's actually useful information in terms of being able to to get them in your little cup and with your paper underneath and then and then release them outside.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:03

You're awfully kind to the flies. I I can't say I'm as kind as to the flies that make it in the house. But no, it's really true because um silly example, but uh many years ago um we worked for a company that was chicken and so we had to train these chickens uh to run on a treadmill or to walk on a treadmill.

Amelia Thomas: 45:22

Wow.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:23

And we had to use their breed of chickens, which would be like a Cornish cross, a very heavy chicken breed for meat. They're not the cleverest of the chicken breeds because they're, you know, they don't live a whole long time, and I mean it's a whole thing and whatever. But uh we so I went to the hatchery and got 12 of the chickens, adult chickens to work with. And um each individual chicken, you know, we took care of and and luckily, you know, because we rescued the 12 of them, they had a happy life after that. But so, they didn't end up on someone's plate. But um out of the 12, only two, even with time and patience and shaping and modelling could figure out that if I walk forward on this slow-moving tread, I can get to the lettuce, which is here. You know, the other ones there was just like, you know, they just like if my if you my hand is moving like he's just slowly falling off the treadmill. I mean, he didn't fall, but like walking back, you know, couldn't couldn't grasp the concept cuz why would a chicken understand a treadmill in nature? There's no such thing.

Amelia Thomas: 46:20

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 46:21

But there was two awfully clever ones, you know, that like.

Amelia Thomas: 46:25

That's amazing.

Barbara O’Brien: 46:26

If I can move with the treadmill, you know, um I mean it's a very silly business. I I usually don't get asked to do those things. That was a long time ago.

Amelia Thomas: 46:35

Well, I still think that's a massive accomplishment to be able to train a chicken to walk on a treadmill. That's like a, you know, that's your your um the commun the two-way communication there is is like incredibly complex, you know.

Barbara O’Brien: 46:50

Yeah. Well, chickens are way smarter than birds because you talk about birds quite a bit in your book. Way smarter than we give them credit for and and uh you know, huge personalities of this, you know, the whole thing. I love love my chickens.

Amelia Thomas: 47:02

I I love chickens, too. We had we had a chicken called Ivy and she uh she didn't think of herself as a chicken. She was uh you know how people sometimes get chicks through the mail and so some people got a box of chicks through the mail. She was attacking the others. So, we we ended up with her and kept her completely separate and every morning she walked from her home one in one place. So, she was away from the other chickens through the house out into the yard. And we had a huge uh French mastiff who um and all she had to do was look at him. She'd never touched him, but all she had to do was give him this look and he would go and he, you know, he was 20, 120, £130 at least. He would cower in the corner and sort of look away, shielding his eyes almost until she'd walked past. They're very smart cuz she knew, you know, she knew what she wanted and she knew she didn't want him near her. So, yeah, chickens are very, very, very underestimated creatures, I think.

Barbara O’Brien: 47:54

Absolutely. Well, I think all of them are. If animals could say one clear sentence to humans, what do you think it would be?

Amelia Thomas: 48:03

That's hard. You know, my instant reaction was to say just be be kinder to me, you know. I I think that would be probably uh but that might be me me sort of put putting that onto them.

Barbara O’Brien: 48:15

But well, we could all be kinder to each other. I mean I mean just as a general rule.

Amelia Thomas: 48:21

Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, I think you know that I think probably it would be that let let's all just get along you know everybody just wants to be happy in the end and um yeah, I think I think animals want to be happy and peaceful and.

Barbara O’Brien: 48:35

Yeah, safety, they safety and then and then you know their needs met like any living thing. Makes sense to me right.

Amelia Thomas: 48:42

Yeah, and you know especially these days I think it's even more important to be thinking about being kind to others so that can extend you know to humans and and to all the creatures with whom we share our lives.

Barbara O’Brien: 48:54

We both know that people who love animals on the whole are a little kinder in general.

Amelia Thomas: 49:00

That's true.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:01

I'm always suspicious if someone doesn't like any kind of animal. I mean, I get it. They don't want, you know, particularly dog or a cat, but when they go like, "Oh, I I What's your favorite animal?" No. I'm just like, "Whoa, okay. Sorry. You had a bad childhood, or something happened to you." Anyway, um all right. All right; I'm going to show the book one more time because um we all think it's amazing. And so, let's talk about where we can find this book. And um we will put all your links in the show notes and things like that, too. But where can we find this book?

Amelia Thomas: 49:29

Um it should be at your local independent book seller, who of course they're very happy always for for you to be buying from small business. Um it's on Amazon. Um all the usual places, Barnes & Noble, and then that that's in the US and then elsewhere in the world. um in the UK uh same thing for for sale sort of on Amazon and in bookshops. Um it's about to come out in Australia and New Zealand.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:54

Exciting.

Amelia Thomas: 49:55

So same thing there. And then there's also an audio book which uh we recorded so that's on Audible. Um so all the usual places that you can you know you can access.

Barbara O’Brien: 50:03

Good on you. Um you know getting a book published that's not self-published is very hard these days. You know, and I I have a book myself from years ago and um this Penguin Random House, but I mean, it's a thing to go through, you know, so good on you because obviously your message is really important and I I hope that people buy tons of these books because uh it would help animals. It would just help them if people understood them better. And then, as I mentioned, we'll put all of your information on the show notes so people can find you. But I really want to thank you for taking the time to to chat with us today. Um and of course, I'm a little biased because it was fun to be in the book.

Amelia Thomas: 50:38

Well, it was very fun talking to you and I I still am very grateful that you found time to chat with me for the book.

Barbara O’Brien: 50:43

That that part's easy, you know, and then um having a sheep on the front just makes me feel honored. But but um thank

you again for everything. We really appreciate it.

Amelia Thomas: 50:53

Oh, thank you. It's been really fun chatting with you.

Music: 50:55