Julie-Anne Thorne - Come Out of Your Head and Into Your Heart to Connect with Your Cat - S1 E5

Empathetic Trainer - Season 1 - Episode 5

Julie-Anne Thorne - Holistic Cat Therapist and Author
Hosted by Barbara O'Brien 


Barbara O'Brien: 0:10

Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien and welcome to The Empathetic Trainer. Today's guest is Julie- Anne Thorne, all the way from the UK, so we're pretty excited about that. Julie Anne -Thorne is a holistic cat therapist, empath, author, cat mom, psychologist and certified behaviorist. She has worked with cats for over 15 years and is founded Naturally Cats to provide holistic help for cats and their guardians. That sounds amazing and I want to say right away cats and their guardians. That just has a really good feeling about it because pet owner, we own them. It's a whole thing and I'm kind of like, wow, I'm the guardian of several amazing cats. But guardian just strikes me as a lovely word and so maybe we'll just kind of start at the beginning. First of all, thank you for coming on the show. We're grateful for that. I got your book. We're going to talk about this book quite a bit Cat Chakras. Am I pronouncing Chakras right?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 1:13

Either, or Chakras, chakras, as long as, yeah, all the same thing.

Barbara O'Brien: 1:17

Okay, good, and we'll definitely want to. We want to talk about that because I completely do not know any of this and I was reading it and I'm like wow. But to begin with, I'd like to know a little bit about you, like when did this start? Did you just wake up? You know I'm a cat person, or did it come? You know? Tell me a little bit about early Julie- Anne, maybe your first experience with cats, and then we'll just, we'll just keep going, but I want to hear from you.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 1:43

Beautiful. Thank you, Barbara, and thank you for having me on the podcast. It's a real opportunity to be here. So, thank you very much. It's lovely. So yeah, we've always had cats in my family. My mum and dad got divorced when I was young, but they each had cats, so my grandparents had cats. My aunties had cats. We are a cat family. I'm not anti-dog in any way, shape or form, but we are. We've all had cats. So, when I finished university, after doing my psychology degree, I knew that I wanted to get my very first cat. It was like non-negotiable and the first cat that came into my life. I waited five months for her because I went to rescue centers and they didn't have cats. How does that work, like rescue centers not having cats available to me?

Barbara O'Brien: 2:26

Yeah, they're always overrun with cats, right? I mean, that's what the thing. So.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 2:31

Exactly so it was. So, I waited until the rescue center called so that they had a cat, and it was Pickle, and for anybody that follows me on social media or has read any of my content know that she was the cat that changed my life. So, being, like you said, her guardian, I became very uncomfortable with the term owner very early on, whilst being like her mum you know I didn't definitely with Pickle, did not own her in any way.

Barbara O'Brien: 3:05

That’s funny that it’s a her. We know this right.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 3:07

So, people would say that cats are more, cats are more relaxed, and you know I don't necessarily agree with that because I think each cat is a unique individual. But I heard the term guardian when I did some training and thought that just really resonates for me. You know, I guard this soul while she's with me. You know, in this, in this form, and Pickle, she was a very, very poorly cat. We had her for 13 years. She broke my heart, she pushed my boundaries, she inspired me, she, she changed my world and I created, Naturally Cats because of her, because she was incredibly poorly. We had arthritis, gingivitis, pancreatitis, diabetes, dandruff, you know, constipation. We had so many problems and I was desperate to do as much as I could for her, and I didn't feel like we were getting anywhere with vets and that's not to disrespect vets in any way. We just weren't getting answers, she wasn't getting well. So, she led me to train in animal healing and then the course is kind of, you know, evolved from there. I'm happy to go into the journey with her, but again, I could probably talk about Pickle for like a good hour.

Barbara O'Brien: 4:28

I understand that. So, Pickle was definitely with you know, we have an expression, a heart cat. You know. Like, like all cats are wonderful, but there's particular animals in your lives. You know I have a particular heart horse even with all the horses particular heart dog, although I love them all. You know my particular heart cat's 19 years old right now, you know, and she sleeps on my head every night and her name is Evelyn, and so I understand the depth of feeling that you would have had, you know, for Pickle. So how did? Was this a new trend, a new growing thing learning about? Were you in the right place at the right time to learn these modalities, these things to about cats? Was it out there for you to learn or did you have to, like, figure this out all by yourself? You know, how did you go about learning these things?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 5:14

Kind of a bit of both. So, we I wanted someone who could give me a holistic approach to helping her. We could look at all the elements that affected her. When I was going to the vet, it was very much symptom treatment, symptom treatment, and I'm like there's got to be more than this. You know what is this holistic approach? We tried a bit of, we tried a bit of homeopathy, we tried a bit of acupuncture and again it was. It was still very much one treatment or one method and one change. So I had a moment with her on the sofa, on the couch, as you guys would say, and we were sat spooning as you do, you know on the sofa, cuddled all up together, watching the telly, and I was at the point where we'd been to and for the vets for nearly two years because she was vomiting regularly and all they kept saying to me was change her food, change her food. And I was at the point where I just fell into surrender. I was on the sofa with her and there was nothing else that I could do. So, I had my hand on her tummy because we would just, we would sit that way. And in my heart, I just kept repeating help me, heal her, help me heal her, like I don't know who I was talking to. I'm not particularly religious, I just didn't know what else to do, so that's what we did. And then we at this point she was diabetic, so we used to check her blood glucose by pricking her ear to get a little droplet of blood. I checked her blood glucose after this incident on the sofa and her reading was 5.6, which was the lowest we'd ever known, and actually she didn't have that number ever again, and I was just blown away.

Barbara O'Brien: 6:56

Wow. So, do you feel that the intention and the energy that you brought to that moment, with help from wherever a person wants to call it, those pieces came together and the intention and energy did something that showed you that something was possible for healing cats?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 7:22

That's exactly it. You've, you've, yeah, you've captured it brilliantly. That's exactly it. I mean, up until this point, I was a psychologist. You know, I have a psychology degree. So, I’m very much about, you

Barbara O'Brien: 7:29

So linear thinking and science. 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 7:38

I'm very much about, you know, behavior and science and you know the logical approach. So, it blew my mind and from that moment I looked into Reiki. I, you know, searched for hands healing and I trained in Reiki. Then I trained in animal healing, because the human stuff was fine. But I wanted, you know, to find out how to read cats, how to work with cats, how to connect with cats. So, I did a diploma in animal healing which was very unfortunately, dog focus, dog centric. We had a couple of cats, but not many.

Barbara O’Brien:  

Dogs… No, I love dogs too, 

Julie-Anne Thorne: 

Me too, me too. But and then, on that course, the tutor mentioned about self-selection, about using, you know, oils and essential oils and dried herbs to support cats.

Barbara O'Brien: 8:24

Now you’re getting into a territory. I mean, I understand the energy part a little bit because I feel that's very much how it works, because in my head we're all energy right, whatever. So, I but when you talk about Reiki and we start talking about these other things, you're going to have to educate me. So, and also, that'll help educate our listeners who aren't familiar. I mean, I've heard the words, I know, but it doesn't mean I know what they mean. So, if you could please for us, we'll start with. What does Reiki mean? What is that about?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 8:55

So, Reiki is a form of energy healing, and you can have something called an attunement, which essentially means that you find the frequency of the universal healing energy. So, you're then able to channel that energy, to use that energy purposefully, with a range of symbols, to heal or support the healing of a human or an animal. So, for me, Reiki is a lovely modality. Yet I also do believe that everybody has the capacity to heal, even if they aren't attuned to Reiki, because, as you said a minute ago, it's about intention and energy. So, you know, reiki is a beautiful space and if people want to have training and qualifications about energy, that's an option that they could explore.

Barbara O'Brien: 9:48

Okay, good. So yeah, they certainly could find more information out about that. The next thing you mentioned was healing oil. Is that what you said, healing oils? 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 10:02

So, I did. The diploma that I did was in animal healing and during that the tutor mentioned about using essential oils and dried herbs with cats and dogs. So, the term is zoofarmacognizy, which is a very, very long word.

Barbara O'Brien: 10:17

I'm not sure I could repeat it.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 10:20

Generally, it's referred to as zoofarm or self-selection. So basically, it's zoofarmacognizy translates to animal medicine, knowing, and it's all about the fact that animals have the capacity to choose what they need to heal. So, you've got horses. You'll have seen. You know, some of your horses will eat certain herbs, bushes, flowers, plants at different times of year. They are choosing those because of the healing properties of that plant.

Barbara O'Brien: 10:51

Dogs go outside and eat grass. I mean, you know right, they at least mine do. I live on a farm and they're like eating grass all the time.So, it must be something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, what they eat, right, okay, so I understand that that's pretty cool. So then let's talk about so your cat felt this energy from you, or how it worked, and it opened up your mind to new possibilities. Okay, so then you wouldn't got to learn more about it? So then how did you start? First of all, did the cat feel better, like did it help in what happened? And then you're opening the new knowledge that you have. Did that help Pickle in the long run?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 11:33

Yes, it did so. Basically, the training with the healing, the self-selection and then the chakra work. I don't know we haven't mentioned that, but like you said, we will. So, it spanned over a period of probably about six to seven years and what happened is, every time I learned a new modality, I used it with Pickle, and she did benefit. She would self-select spirulina which boosts the immune system she would work with, you know, a lot of people are familiar with, like dried catnip, which helps to reduce stress and anxiety. There are other 

Barbara O'Brien: 12:04

Isn’t that interesting cat nip because that's, you know, naturally that's something I think of and we, you know, cats enjoy it and it grows wild here too as well. I've never thought of it as like. I guess of course that's why cats are drawn to it, right, and of course it does help them to relax and have some fun and like. I wish I had some of that, you know, but I never really put that the cat would self-select it like duh. How do we know cats like it? Because they self-select it. So that makes sense.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 12:32

Yeah. 

Barbara O'Brien: 12:33

Okay, all right, so Pickle is feeling better. What made you decide to like? Okay, this is working for Pickle and I'm learning these things how to take what you are you really care about and want to share with the world. How did you make that step to turning to work with other people's cats, like? Did people come to you and go my cat has a problem, or tell me how that process worked?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 12:57

So Naturally Cats, the kind of was a hobby for a good few years and with every course that I did because I did the diploma, you know, it was always a couple of years, it was never just like a weekend course. You know, I wanted to learn as much as I could and I'm the kind of person that likes detail, and I said I do have that logical side of me. So, I wanted the evidence, the experience. So, I would work with, you know, case studies, and then some of those case studies would become clients. They would want a second treatment, a second visit. So, then I would charge them a very small, nominal amount of time and started that way.

Barbara O'Brien: 13:32

Okay, well, that I can see how that could build and you're, you're helping cats. So, however it happened, it's good that it happened. Yeah, so the? You know I have a number of cats and I do my best to make sure that they all have their own resources so that nobody's fighting over food, nobody's fighting over litter boxes, nobody's fighting over places to sleep and things like that. It took me a long time to start to learn that, wow, and that one cat sits on the top of the stairs and stairs down at the other cat. That's a thing you know. Like to learn their body language and stuff like that. Let's, we will get into the chakras. But what was the most of the? When people come to you with a problem, you know, what would you say is the most prevalent common problem that people are having? That they're, you know, like the cats in danger of being placed or put down. I mean, like, like you know, it's just such a serious problem that they are like you know, this isn't working. We gotta get rid of the cat and that's the worst outcome. So what? What are the most serious problems? Are the things that happen that most commonly? I guess I should say.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 14:33

I think the two most, I think the two most common misunderstood behaviors in cats are aggression and anxiety. So, they generally manifest as weeing outside the litter tray or weeing around the home, or aggression, which is obviously the cat's reactive. You can't pick them up. You know they may hiss, they may may start to scratch, and both of those have emotional causes. So, people over the years would come to me sometimes with behaviors related to those two situations. But there's always an emotional cause and the problem that we have is is actually, for a large portion of the situation with cats, is the humans. The humans don't understand where the aggression is coming from. What type of aggression is it? Is the cat in pain? Are they fearful? Have they got limited resources? Is their territory being impacted? Are they physically? Do they have a physical issue? Where is their aggression coming from? Or their anxiety? Why are they presenting with anxiety? The cats are inherently clean animals. Cats are social, sentient, sensitive beings, so they can't be left alone for days at a time. They need connection and interaction and relationships, like dogs, like humans. So when, when we have humans who have a cat or expectations of a cat, my cat should be cuddly, my cat should do this should do that. That's when we have a problem and that's when people would come to me to to ask me to effectively change their cat, which for a while I wasn't, because I'm a trained behaviorist as well. For a while I'd say probably about 12 months, maybe I did work with people with behavior, behavior modification, supporting the cat in their environment, changing, you know, bringing things in to support the cat's emotional state and then actually I realized that the results that were the results were limited in terms of the duration, of how long they lasted for, because it wasn't until I started working with the humans or the guardians that I then realized that their emotional state was impacting the cat, their expectations, etc.

Barbara O'Brien: 16:44

So, you are. You are speaking the language of the things I'm learning about when I talk to my podcast guests, because with horses and dogs and any, any other mammal that you know, it's the exact same thing. What we bring to the table, what we bring to the relationship, and those expectations affect that animal’s behavior. I completely understand. I train animal actors and so I work with, you know, animals that are in commercials and print ads and movies and things like that, and I've done that for a very long time, and I train. Well, I shaped cats. There's no, you know, cats only agree. You can probably dominate a dog and a horse to a point, but there's no dominating a cat and having the cat be happy about it, and I don't want any animal to be working that's not happy in their work. I don't, we just don't do that. And so I've learned, hopefully over time, to continue to learn their body language and understand, and so I choose the cats carefully. But it's all intention, it's all like, really like, you know. Okay, please, I'd like you to wear this, you know, silly sweater. We're going to wear this. This sweater Is it UK? We say jumper. I think right, 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 

Yes, yes. 

Barbara O’Brien:

So, I want to. I want you to wear this because that's what the photo shoots about, because the client is selling the sweater, right? Cats normally not choosing to wear clothes. You know why. They're pretty good for code, don't really need it, but I, I work with my cats, and I go. You're going to look so nice in this and it's going to feel really good and I'm going to be. We're going to put it on very gently and you already know that I've shaped the behavior to please sit, stay, because there's this yummy turkey that we're going to be giving you and it's really fun to walk to because I'm giving off that intention you know the cat has is since they were kittens have been socialized, brought to the studios, used to things, nothing scary. They actually look quite proud and when I opened the crate that because I brought them to the studio, open the crate for them to come out they come out. You know the body language and the tail goes up and they're just like look at me and everyone goes oh, because they're all happy, the cats there and it's all. The whole crews energy towards the cat and the cat loves it. Now, you can't just take somebody's house cat and put him in that situation is not fair. 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 18:57

No, because they don't know, and I love the fact that you said about the respect there. You know the respect of the cats, the respect of their emotional state, the respect that you're showing them. You know you're going to wear this jumper, but you know we're going to talk to you about how long you're going to have it on for and there's going to be the reassurance. You know there is the respect and the understanding that it's a cat you're working with. They are no lesser than any human or dog. You know. 

Barbara O'Brien: 19:19

I do say to the photographers that are learning other people that go, like you know it is a cat, okay, it is a cat, you know we're going to shape a behavior, or they'll say something, can you do that? And I go, I'll ask them. It's like you know, there's not a little man in there that you know has the frontal cortex to understand. You know, do this, do this, do this, do this. All I do in a shaping a natural behavior, and I, you know, okay, we do dress them up. I’m sorry, but 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 19:44

I was gonna say I’m not sure how much natural goes alongside wearing a jumper. But I know what you mean.

Barbara O'Brien: 19:50

I mean so I know that and so, but that that's just a, you know, one example. Most of the time it's like please sit here, be a pretty cat, you know so. That's so. I try not to do anything that is terrible for their dignity. Because it's not, you know, because whatever. Because if we start, if you do something, you, you put something on that looks funny and you start to laugh at them. They feel that, and I don't want to do that, you know so. Instead, we always go like you know, oh, look at you, you're so wonderful, and it's a matter of five, 10 minutes, that's all this. Because we get the shot, it's like we’re done. There's no reason to do it any longer. I sound like I'm being terribly cruel to my cats. It's not true.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 20:24

No, no, no, no. Like you said, though, if you went to, if you walked into a room, you know, for a meeting or a party, and everybody turned and laughed at you, at you, how would you feel? Right, cats are sentient beings. They have emotions. Exactly that's what I was trying to do. That, yeah for sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Barbara O'Brien: 20:40

So, I get that. So, you're exactly right, though, because the same thing works with horses, and so, and then you know I've heard this that of course I want to I can't remember Exactly which book I read it on but we're mammals too, we're animals to, and so what? Our cats and dogs and other mammals that we're working with and I still think birds and other things too, because they're all have, you know, they're all living, okay, they feel it as well, and so we have to remember that we have all those same feelings of. We can feel other people's energy towards us, naturally, of course, right. So why wouldn't, why wouldn't a cat, a dog, anything else, feel that you know? So, okay, so then let's let's talk about chakras, because this is a whole new world for me, and I'm assuming that chakras work similarly in all the mammals, all the living things Is that right. 

Julie- Anne Thorne:

Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Barbara O’Brien: 

For the lay person, for the person that's never been there, could you please explain?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 21:38

Sure, so I'm happy to talk about cat chakras. So they so. Chakras are energy. They're your core energy centers. Essentially, it's how energy moves from your environment into your body and vice versa, from your body out into your environment. So, your auric field, which is the field that sits around your body, that is connected to your main energy centers, which are your chakras, extends out. For humans extends out as far as your arm stretches. That's how far out your energy moves around your body. For cats, it's generally around the height of their tail. If they've got one, their energy is all around their body.

Barbara O'Brien: 22:14

Now that's interesting to me because you said that it extends out to the arm length. Okay, isn't that mostly in most cultures how far apart we stand when we're, when we're strangers, and so respecting a cat's space would be that energy around their tail? So, instead of, like grabbing a strange cat, which would be so rude, you know how would you like if somebody came and picked you up, like literally pick you up and carried you off. That would be rude, right? So, you would want to like stay in that bubble in the sense of like can I come into your bubble please? Right? So, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I just thought about that. Wow, that that makes sense to me that it would extend out that way around each particular species, right?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 22:56

Absolutely, and that is one of the reasons why, with cats, people say you know, let them come to you. You know, put your hand out, put your arm down, put your hand, you know, out towards them and let them come to you, because they are choosing to enter your energy field, your energy space, and also making the choice for you to enter and to feel theirs. Now there are some cats that are like with humans, right, no, two cats are the same, because there are species. They're not, you know, they're not, they're not lemmings and all one thing. They are all unique, as are we. So, some cats will come straight up to you. They'll be quite cuddly, they'll let you touch them, they'll go straight onto their side, show you their tummy, like some humans are really friendly. They touch you, feel you, they give you hugs. You know they're very tactile. And you'll have some cats, as you do with humans, that won't tolerate physical contact, that won't like to be around other people, that are very sensitive to human energy or to other energy. So, with cats, in a way, it's no different to humans. So, people, when people say to me cats are small dogs, I have to say like I really don't agree with that at all. They are a completely different species. However, I do liken cats to humans, with the parallels that they have, like I said, in terms of their uniqueness, their individuality and their energy. Their ability to sense energy is phenomenal. I mean, I'll never forget when I was, when I had my wisdom teeth out. I had all four wisdom teeth out in one go and I went to bed. I had really strong painkillers and Pickle came and sat on my shoulder and against my cheek and I was so swollen, it was so painful, and I'm sure people that are watching or listening sorry will have experienced moments when their cats have come up to them when they're poorly.

Barbara O'Brien: 24:48

Right, oh, yeah, no, they do, they know this. My cat Evelyn. I spoke of the, the calico, that's 19 now Years ago when I was having trouble with my wrist, and it would be painful and I'd had to wear a brace and things. I'd sleep at night here with my hand up here and she found that she would always lay on it, like this living heating pad, and it was the most comforting feeling and she still sleeps there, whether my hands they're not, but it was that comforting feeling, like she knew, and it was the hand that hurt that she would like lay on, and it was this warm, wonderful feeling. And aren't there studies where, like, if you're petting a cat and you relax, it like lowers your blood pressure, you know, like, absolutely studies like that?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 25:29

There are studies to do with that. When you stroke them about how it lowers your blood pressure, but also they're vibrate, the purr, the vibration of their purr. So, when we talk about energy, as you said, energy is all is made of vibration. Sometimes people call it frequency. The two terms are used interchangeably, but you know, essentially that's how energy is, is measured, that's what makes up energy. So, when you've got a cat that is purring, 90% of the time it's because they're happy. There are some cats that will purr when they're stressed, but it's not as common. But generally, people know that when cats are purring, that they are happy and it's to do with the frequency, the impact that it has on our energy centers, on our chakras, on our heart space.

Barbara O'Brien: 26:08

How can you not feel good when you're holding or near a purring cat? How can you not feel good? I just you know like the day melts away when you're like relaxed and your cat is like with you and wants to be with you. So, we're going to go back to the chakras, but this is a phenomenon I just wanted to have you explain to our listeners because I bet you know this. Why is it, when you are not a cat person, you know and I don't know what that feels like, but pretend I wasn't a cat person and I go somewhere and somebody has a cat and they're giving, so I give off the energy, like don't come near me, don't come near me, I don't want to talk to you cat. You know, I don't want anything to do with you, cat cats or whatever. Why do some cats, or quite a few cats, go like oh, that's interesting, I have to go over there, and I have to check that out. You know why? What is it that makes the cat go like it's okay to go over to this person who's giving off like don't come near me? Is they? Are they literally curious? Can you maybe explain that?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 27:07

That's a really great question. So, there are two. There are two reasons, I would say, that that happens. One is is a behavioral response. So, cats are hardwired to avoid threats. You know they are. They are prey, predator and prey animals. So, when they are being basically eyed up because if you don't like cats, what do you do? You watch that cat as they walk across the room to make sure they're not coming anywhere near you. So, your eye is trained on that cat as they walk around you. So, one reason maybe that cats will come to you to basically diffuse the situation, because they want to know are you going to attack me, are you going to be a threat to me? You know, if another cat and if there were two cats outside, they would come towards each other, not necessarily up close, but they would come towards each other. They do a bit of a standoff to make it short and then they would decide to either fight or to disperse and walk away. So that's one of the potential reasons that the cat does it. The second reason is because they're healers, because they want to come towards you to shift your energy, to change your vibration in that space.

Barbara O'Brien: 28:11

What a gift, what a gift that cats give us. Then I had not ever thought of it from that point of view. I've always thought of it was more like your energy. So curious, I'm curious. I love the fact that, because I do have cats that are like that, that are definitely, you know, would be, if I had time, they'd be therapy cats Like you could bring them and they would. They would love to like to heal, you know. So, I get that. If Sullivan, you know that's, that's his role, I mean, he just like I'm going to make you feel better, I'm going to come and be with you, but I've never thought of it from that perspective. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, so we're going back to the Chakras. We've talked about how it's a flow, so then go ahead, tell me some more please.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 28:49

Okay, so, cat, the way that I work with Chakras, with cats, is I work with the main seven Chakras. There are more, there are. There is a school of thought that says that every acupressure point is a mini or micro chakra. So, depending on what, which information you work with, my experience of working with Chakras has been the seven main Chakras. So that's the root, the sacral, the solar plexus, the heart, the throat, the third eye and the crown. So, they, literally, if you had a sideways picture of a cat, it starts at the base of the tail, works up through the body to just above the top of their head. Unfortunately, we haven't. I can't show you videos because we're audio, but basically, it's the whole of the cat.

Barbara O'Brien: 29:29

Yeah, no, in your book Cat Chakras, which is a complete guide to clearing, cleansing and balancing your cat's core energy centers, and your book just came out, so I'm happy to have this copy. You have illustrated it quite well and you have pictures and they're showing how you do things. It's really a great manual, you know it's. It's it's like why, but also how, which is extremely so. Then people can learn these things and help their cats and then turn their helping themselves. So, they've done a great job illustrating it. So, when you pick up, go get, get a go to. There'll be links in the in the podcast here. So go pick up her book and look at that.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 30:09

Thank you, Barbara. I appreciate that and I appreciate your feedback. That was the point of the book. So, my mission when I, when I left my corporate job, my mission is giving cats a voice. You'll see that hashtag over everything my social media. You know, giving cats a voice. I thought I was doing that before when I was explaining to people their behavior, but actually what I realized is when you, you can give a cat a voice, but unless the guardian is listening, that voice isn't heard, which is why I wrote the book.

Barbara O'Brien: 30:34

Unless the guardian is listening is like so true, same thing with horses, dogs, anything else, children, right, anything else.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 30:42

Exactly, yeah. So that's why I wrote the book to give, to give people the option so you can come and have a treatment with me. But actually, let's not. Why not show you how to do it? The listener, the reader, you know every. Like I said, I do believe that everybody has the capacity to manage to channel universal healing energy. You may need some hints and tips as to how to do that, which are in the book, but you have the capacity anybody listening to feel the energy of your cat, to feel into their chakras, and when you have a cat, like a human, who has a set of balanced chakras, you're generally happy, healthy and well. So if you've got a blocked chakra, if you've got an out of balance chakra and I don't want to go into too much detail because again it could be a topic I could talk about for another hour you know, if you've got a chakra that is out of alignment, it's not balanced, it can lead to physical issues. So, you know one of the examples. I sorry, darling, what were you going to say?

Barbara O'Brien: 31:38

Oh, I'm agreeing, I'm agreeing.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 31:41

So, it's something that you know, we need to be mindful of as cat guardians. Yes, we provide litter trays and food and scratching posts, but energy work is like, it's like the forgotten pillar of health, you know, and if I'd have known what I, if I'd have known back with Pickle what I know now, I could have helped her even more. You know, and I do believe that we are where we're meant to be and everything happens when it should. But there are times when I look at her and I think I wish I'd known about color therapy. I wish I'd known how to support you with energy work, which, again, is another reason you're seeing the dedication in the book. That's why I wrote it.

Barbara O'Brien: 32:18

Oh sure, yeah, no, absolutely, Absolutely Well. So, then I'm trying to think of, like, what other problems? Oh okay, so you so go back to the chakras just for a moment. When something's blocked, it can cause, because the mind and body absolutely connected. I mean, I'm reading research, learning about things, how even the gut has its own brain, apparently, and your gut tells your brain things you know. So this works the same way in other mammals, I'm sure. So what? When you say a Chakra is blocked, then what does a person do to help the yourself and the cat? Is it? Do I unblock? What does that mean?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 32:57

Okay. So if you've got a cat, that is, for example, like scratching the side of your sofa. You know is not somewhere you want them to scratch, so you shout at them.

Barbara O'Brien: 33:06

You know some people hey, yeah, yeah. 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 33:09

What are you doing? Leave it alone.  Don't do that. Now the cat is exhibiting a normal cat behavior. A cat needs me scratch. They need to know many, many reasons, but what's actually happening is you are you are stopping that cat from expressing itself because it's doing a normal cat behavior. So, what could happen is the cat could it could have a blockage in their throat chakra. So, the throat chakra is all about self-expression. Now, it's not just about being vocal, because that's what some people think. It's not just about the vote, about using the vocal cords to communicate or the voice to communicate. The throat is about expressions. If the cat is unable to express itself, ie by doing a normal cat behavior which is scratching something, you are diminishing and taking away energy from the cat's throat chakra. And also, if you think about the connection that you've got when you're shouting at them, you're shifting a lot of your energy but you're actually taking it from theirs, okay, so then what happens is the cat may stop expressing itself or it may lose its voice. You may notice that you had a very vocal cut before, and now it's really quiet, or vice versa. It depends whether it's too much energy or not enough energy.

Barbara O'Brien: 34:25

I see a lot of parallels here in relationships and children, because if you're with somebody that gets angry and shouts at you, especially as a child, eventually either you're going to become shut down or you're going to be reactive in an aggressive or fight-or-flight kind of way. So, a cat, I guess, or mammal would be very similar. You yell at them for no understanding. They have no understanding of why and they're going to do it. They're going to lose their voice, like a child can lose his voice, and then it comes out other ways. So, I just keep drawing parallels between all of us being animals.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 35:02

Absolutely, and I said that's a really great parallel and, like you said, about diminish their spirit. If you shout at your cat, my question to the humans are why are you shouting? Is it because you don't understand the behavior or is it because you don't like the behavior? Because if you don't like it, you've asked to live with a cat, you've got a cat as your pet. You need to understand why your cat is doing that behavior, which is, like I said before, it comes back to the human and their lack of understanding about the aggression or the anxiety. But if you, for example, in this example, if you keep shouting at your cat because they scratch the sofa, you're diminishing that cat spirit. What you may notice is in a couple of month’s time they start to urinate around the house. Because actually and it's not because of the litter tray, it's not because of any diet issue it's because they're unable to express themselves because the sacral chakra is connected to the kidney, the bladder. So, if they can't express themselves by using their scratching it's all connected.

Barbara O'Brien: 36:03

Wow, that is. I'm going to learn more about that. That's what the book is about. Everyone, let me check this out because this is really interesting. Yeah, it's funny because people say, like, because, oh, you're a cat trainer. And they'll ask me, how do I do this behavior? And I'm like, well, I don't do that. Well, my cat walks on the counter and I'm like, yeah, it's a cat. I mean, he needs to be high and look down on things. This is the nature of cats. Or he'll bite my ankles when I walk by and I said, do you have two? Like my kitten? I have a new kitten and he bites my ankles. And I, do you have two kittens? No, only one kitten. And I said, well, get another kitten right away, because he needs to have a buddy, he needs to be social and put that energy into each other. There'll still be. Oh, then he won't love me. Oh, that's not true. Believe me, two cats can. Three, seven, 10 cats can love you. This is not an issue. They'll still, they'll be in their colony, but they'll still love you and want to be with you. So just like, yes, it's a cat. Like, what do you expect? It’s a cat. 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 37:00

I know, and at that point there you said like about them loving you. That's the bit that I'm starting to work with now. It's helping the guardians to understand. So, what are your expectations of a cat? What needs in you are you projecting onto your cat? Why do you expect your cat to be a certain way? What need in you are you expecting them to fill? You know, if you want? I mean, who doesn't want a cuddly cat? You know cats feel nice to touch because of their fur. So, who doesn't want a cuddly cat? But not all cats are cuddly, like I said before. And if you have a cat that's not cuddly, you have to respect that because if you don't, unfortunately you're going to damage the relationship. There'll be the energy and the emotion that exchanges between you, you know, and it can lead to behavioral and physical issues. When we accept a cat for the being that they are, in the way that they are, your relationship can then truly blossom. You know, if you see them as the being and how they show you love, it can be phenomenal.

Barbara O'Brien: 38:00

Oh yeah, well, I can't. You know, I love my horses and I love my dogs, you know, and my chickens and my sheep. I can't imagine not having cats in my life. I'm so blessed that I'm able to and I can't imagine I mean how? Because I'm probably with them physically more than any of my other animals, because the dogs are big and so they don't sit on my lap as much as they love to. And the dogs, I love them, but there's too many. You know I have three and I don't want them all in my bed. So sorry, dog people, but I don't want all three cats. But the cats on my bed, like when we travel, oh, I miss my cat. You know I miss them because I want my. You know, and you know how hard it was to lose pickles, I'm sure for you. You know, Evelyn is fine, she's 19, she's. You know, kidneys are still okay, but there's kind of come a time, you know. So, I've got another cat that is like she's. They get along, they're fine. You know Cleo, but Cleo is learning her place on the bed because, like, we're making room. I mean, I know that sounds terrible, but animals make room for each other. You know, when animals leave us, they're making room for another animal. I kind of believe that and I'm a big heaven person so I kind of you know, believe I'll see all my cats again and they'll go. You, you made us wear clothes, but anyway I do love them, so I get that. I have another question before we go to the next segment of the show, but another quick question multiple cats, people with multiple cats. Do cats cause each other problems that block their chakras? Or is it mostly human, the guardians not doing managing resources well or, like you know, causing conflicts, is not enough space and not enough like the resources are being threatened. I mean multiple cats, how does, can they affect each other's chakras, or is this more? I'm just curious, I don't know.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 39:53

No, absolutely. It's a great question again. So, yes, they can. If you think about with humans, you know when you're with certain people they will. You'll spend time with them and then you'll come home and feel probably a bit drained. Others, your people you'll come home and you're you know, you know what what I mean. Other people you'll spend time with and you come home and you feel like you know you're going to go and tackle all the housework cause you're just buzzing and absolutely full of energy. And again, it's the same with cats, to draw that parallel. So, in a multi-cat home, you need to be a heightened guardian, you need to be more aware, and that's even more of a reason to use, like color therapy and chakra work, you know, by having colors around the house, to give the cats the opportunity to manage their own energy. Because and you know, as you said, it's all about relationships it's the emotions. You know emotions are energy in motion. So if you've got a cat that is being.

Barbara O'Brien: 40:45

Oh, sorry, stop right there. That is a beautiful. Emotions are energy in motion. I'm going to steal that. Emotions are energy in motion. Wow, you could have a whole show just about that. That's wonderful. Okay, yeah, you're right. I mean, it's really true.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 41:02

Yeah, yeah. So if you've got so, when you've got multiple cats, like with multiple humans, think of all the different emotions that people or the cats are experiencing. If you've got a cat that's being bullied. If you've got a cat that's shy and it's got nowhere to hide away. If you've got a cat that, like you said, needs to have heights to feel safe and you don't have any. When you've got one and it's already taken over by another cat, you've got to take the time to manage the dynamics, and that's not just from a behavior perspective. For me, behavior is the what's the word. Behavior is like the symptom of an emotion, you know if you've got an aggressive cat, it's because there's an emotional reason for it. If you've got a cat that's hiding away, there's an emotional reason for it. So for me, when you're dealing with a multi-cat home, take time. Take time to know each of your cats as an individual and then understand how those individuals interact in that group space Because, as you said, it is going to impact their energy as it would ours.

Barbara O'Brien: 42:02

Okay, one more question related to that and then we'll move on to the cake break and questions, because we have some questions that I'll get to that. But I have a friend who has a cat that she confines him to a different room during parts of the day cuz she just can't deal with whatever right and he cries. And like just this mournful cry and I guess it's not possible cause he disturbs her work. I'm not really sure why he can't always be with her. What is he saying when this is a mournful, you know over and over again for extended periods? Now he has his needs met, physical needs met, okay, and he's got space and all the things, but he's not with her and there's other cats. They're not crying, they're down there with them. What? Why is I mean I don't know what recommendation besides and say it's just not possible those times that the cat can be in her lap, for instance for this, talking a few hours at a time? Is he just an extremely vocal cat? I mean, he's obviously telling her something.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 43:14

Exactly that he's trying to communicate something with her. So without having a picture of the cat or knowing the cat, obviously it's difficult for me to be able to say exactly what's going on for him. But a child, a human, an animal, if it's vocalizing, they're either happy or they're sad. You know they're either sharing with you and connecting with you or they're looking for connection. So you know it's pretty simple.

Barbara O'Brien: 43:38

I just feel bad cause, you know, in my head he's crying, you know.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 43:43

Yeah, I would say. I mean they need connection. They're not beings that you can just leave alone. You know that's a really common misconception and you can hear in my voice. It actually frustrates me and actually upsets me quite a bit,

Barbara O'Brien: 43:54

Because you wouldn't leave a child alone for long periods, you know. So, he happens to be a cat that craves being with the human, perhaps more than another cat Like it's a bigger need for him.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 44:09

It might not even be a question that he craves it. It might be that he needs to be, to have that connection with the human, to feel safe. It might be that he needs that connection with the human to feel secure in his environment. It might be that he needs that connection with the human to feel grounded. You know, again, there are so many reasons and, like you said, we all do the best that we can. If she can't have him in the house for whatever reason, or different rooms, you know we do what we can with what we've got. There are ways to support him, you know, in terms of the emotional side of it. But it depends if that's applicable with the space that they've got, with the amount of cats that are there, you know.

Barbara O'Brien: 44:44

Well, I'm going to tell her, you know, we're going to get her book. Get you the book.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 44:47

Yeah, you know, maybe open it up and lightning.

Barbara O'Brien: 44:50

Okay, so the next segment of our show is what we call the cake break, or pie time, or whatever. I don't know if we can try to hold this up so you can see. See this yummy blueberry cornmeal. You know, and if you were here, although you're where in the UK, are you exactly?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 45:07

I'm in Plymouth, I'm in the Southwest, so I'm down towards the far, farthest end of the map, opposite London, the other side of the country.

Barbara O'Brien: 45:15

Sounds beautiful If you were here. I don't know how many miles away that is to Wisconsin, but if you were here we would be sharing this lovely, lovely blueberry cornmeal cake. Luckily my crew, because I have to feed them, you know my crew, we'll have it enjoy it when we're done here, but this marks the time we call, where we have the questions for you now. So, what we do is I borrowed this idea from Warwick Shiller, who's kind of what you're doing with cats. Warwick Schiller is doing with horses educating people. How did they have literally uses the word attunement with horses? And he asks he has a wonderful podcast and so you might want to check that out because there's so much animal behavior and he talks about people's journeys in the world of attunement, learning how to be more in touch with our animals and their feelings. He has a section where he asks, we sent you ahead of time these 20 questions that he borrowed from Tim Ferriss, which is the book Tribe of Mentors. Okay, so we'll give everybody credit when we're borrowing these things, and we asked you to pick out five of those that we get to ask you. Okay, so the questions that you asked is the first one was what book would you recommend and why?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 46:30

So, the first book. 

Barbara O’Brien:

Naturally besides your own books. 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 

I was going to say the first book that I would recommend would be either because I've got two books would be either of my books, so Cat Chakras, obviously called the Aromatic Cat, which is my second book. So that's about how to use herbs and hydrosols with cats. If we're talking about not my book, I would probably say I would have to say excuse me, your life is waiting. By Lynn Grabhorn, I think it is.

Barbara O'Brien: 47:00

Oh, okay.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 47:02

That's a bit of a curveball, I know. So it's not about cats, but it's about energy and about how you can manage your own and how your energy and your kind of frequency impacts your day-to-day life. And for me, that was a book that was like it was a light bulb moment. I read that book and I can't even tell you how it came into my life. My sister bought it for me. I can't remember, but I've got so many underlines, so many folded corners and every time I read the book. I take something different from it.

Barbara O'Brien: 47:33

So yeah, I would say that I would say that book. Please repeat the title of that again.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 47:37

It's called Excuse Me, your Life is Waiting, and it's by Lynn Grabhorn.

Barbara O'Brien: 47:43

Okay, we're going to definitely look into that. Just a note to my producer if you want to put that in the show notes, okay, all right. What is the most valuable thing that you've put your time into? That has changed the course of your life?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 48:00

And I said to ask me that question wow, what was I thinking?

Barbara O'Brien: 48:03

That's a tough one, right, it's a tough one.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 48:06

Can you repeat it for me? Barbara, again, please.

Barbara O'Brien: 48:07

What is the most valuable thing that you've put your time into that has changed the course of your life?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 48:18

I would have to say meditation Wow.

Barbara O'Brien: 48:21

Wow, this is a common thread with people who are in tune.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 48:27

So, whenever I meditate, my relationship changes with my two cats, my two current boys, Leo and Baby Max. So, Leo is one of those cats that isn't particularly cuddly. He was previously feral, but when I meditate sometimes, he'll come and lay on my legs when I'm meditating, or when I've meditated, that next morning I'll get chest cuddles from him. And the more I meditate, the more physical our relationship is and the more loving he is, which I think is connected to my energy. So, I mean the way it's impacted everyone. Yeah, absolutely yeah.

Barbara O'Brien: 49:07

Okay, that's really cool. Right, in the last five years, what new belief, behavior or habit has most improved your life?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 49:19

The belief that I have the capacity to manage my frequency and my vibration. 

Barbara O'Brien: 49:27

Okay, that's a big one. That's good, and we'll learn about that when we read more of what you're sharing with us, that self-regulation in a sense, that ability to be aware. I've been an animal active trainer for a very long time and I in the last couple of years, I'm just blown away. But how much is out there to learn and get better at having an understanding. So good on you, because I think there's a real need. Everyone wants to be more fair, more generous, more understanding, be guardians instead of owners. I love that phrase, so that's really cool. Okay, this is a good one. What is the worst advice given in your profession or bad idea that you hear of in your field of expertise? Everyone always laughs at like that because, oh my goodness, there's a lot going on, always Right.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 50:18

So, for me, I would say, the worst piece of advice people can give is after you've had multiple cats or two cats and one passes away, or one's put to sleep, one dies is when people say get another cat. So, I know you mentioned about kittens and that's different. So, like you said, with kittens there is the element to do the socialization, to build relationships, to test their boundaries. It's actually, I would say, essential, if you have kittens to get to completely agree with you there, right. But when people say my cat is lonely, I'm going to get a second cat. Or people say, you know, I think my cat is lonely, what should I do? And people say get a second cat, that's one of the pieces of advice that makes me cringe, because then it leads to a whole host of problems, of introductions my cats don't get on. One then starts weeing. This one won't be cuddly because people misunderstand the emotions of the cat that they've already got. So yeah, I would.

Barbara O'Brien: 51:12

It's like if you're married and he says I'm just going to get another wife because you know you need a friend, you know, at least in most cultures, it's like maybe not you know, yeah.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 51:22

Or if you get divorced and, like, one of you has one kid and one of you has the other, and you say I'm going to get a second kid because this one's lonely, like it's just. 

Barbara O'Brien: 51:30

Oh goodness. See, but we haven't even given the cats that consideration. Did you ask him if he wants a buddy? You know Exactly so. I've always had multi-cat households and so there's never been a single cat, there's always. They've always come in pairs because they come as kittens, and I just feel that you know. And then they have each other to groom and they have each other to. You know so, but when you, yeah, I never really thought of that. You're right, you know, it's like. 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 51:56

I mean, if you've got, one cat that's passed away. Whether the cat has got on or not, that cat needs to grieve and adjust, you know. So, like my dad's. Just my dad's had two cats. One of them was put to sleep about six, eight months ago. The other cat, you know they're not contemplating getting a second one, but the other cat is actually thriving now. He's better as an only cat. He's eating better, he's not spraying around the house, you know, he's a happier cat. So, if my dad felt lonely, like, oh, we need to get a second one, it's like well, look at the needs of the cat, you know, and do you have the capacity to do introductions? Because you can't just come home with a cat and let it out into the house

Barbara O'Brien: 52:26

Like no, no, that's, that's a recipe for disaster because yeah, this, when we do work in the studio, if there's been strange cats that we have nothing to do with, you know, I'm always like we have to like clean this space because they're going to smell these strange cats and they'll be worried Like are they threats? Because they can't see them. They're not there, you know, and if they were there they'd have to spend a lot of time at a distance, going. Hmm, you know, it's like a whole stress Well, situation. I don't want to put them in you know,

Julie- Anne Thorne: 52:56

I love that, I love that you do that. That's good yeah.

Barbara O'Brien: 53:01

I want to be as fair as I'm asking them to wear a sweater. I need to be as fair as possible, but they do love it and I choose them so carefully for for enjoying the travel, enjoying the work, enjoying the intention, because I have other cats here that do not model and they don't have to. That's not their job, you know. They just are happy being here because I love them and they are retired ones that you know, don't that? They're just retired, they're going to live like Evelyn doesn't model, she's 19, You know I'm not going to take her out to these places. She did as it when she was younger, but I always want to be respectful of every animal we work with, because I'm asking something of them and they don't have to do it. You know. 

Julie- Anne Thorne: 53:40

I love that. I love that you have that respect because for me that is, you know, that is the basis of the of a relationship with the cats. You know, regardless of what's going on, we call ourselves out their guardians. They deserve respect, just like other beings and, like you said, to understand those that you're working with and how they will tolerate that, how you've built them up to manage that situation and that you support them with the sense and things. I think it's really beautiful because you know there are cats that love to be on show, that you know, thrive in this kind of environment and if you've got that, you feel safe, and they feel safe and happy. You know. Great, like you said, there are some. I think about my Leo. He, when he sees a human, he runs a mile, you know. So trying to get a cat like that to where, like I can't, just yeah,

Barbara O'Brien: 54:25

We never asked him. Yeah, exactly, you know I loved it. Just a brief story. I would, back in the day I had a cat named Fast Eddie and he was one of my first models because I just started out and I would be. I would go around to different schools as part of a program and talk about cats and how to behave around them and stuff like that, and so I'd put him on a table in his crate so that when he got out of the crate he'd be higher up and the kids would all be sitting on the ground and I'd say, okay, now we need to be really quiet and calm and dance. I'll take a deep breath because there's like 24 of you and there's only one of him and we want him to feel safe and good. But when he comes out, you know it's okay to say oh, because he's so beautiful and watch, when he comes out, he's going to take a bow and then his tail is going to go up and you're going to see him just smile because he loves how much you like him. And so, I'd open the crate and you know Eddie would saunter out and the children would all very beautifully go oh, in a really soft, you know breathing way. And Gast Eddie, I mean, this is what he lived for. And he'd go like, oh yes, and you know the whole body, and he just he would jump down and walk around the group and, you know, tolerate the petting because the children had been forewarned, let's calm our energy. You know, and Eddie thrived on that Now you could not take a different cat. You know, that would be like not even getting out of the crate, you know. So I but I've learned to read them I can walk into an animal shelter and I can look around the group and I'd go. You will love this work and you will not. You know, beautiful, I can't go to animal shelters anymore because it breaks my heart because I want to take them all. I mean, I mean, and so I have, you know, lovely cats and I love them, but but it all comes back down to that, that respect. Okay, so we're going to be wrapping up here soon. We have one more question and it's interesting because of all the podcasts we've done which year number five? So, we're, you know, we're just starting, thank you, um, the people always pick this question what is your relationship with fear? What is your relationship with fear?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 56:34

I used to run from it.

Barbara O'Brien: 56:37

Which makes sense. Why wouldn't you?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 56:40

I used to hide from it, I used to ignore it, I used to push it down and since having Leo, particularly the last 18 months, I have learned to find time for it to find time for my fear.

Barbara O'Brien: 56:54

Oh, to find time for your fear, yeah.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 56:56

To find time for it, to connect with it, to hear where it's coming from, to find out how I can nurture it. My relationship with fear has changed again as a result of Leo and our relationship. You know I've had fears about him, his health, his well-being, et cetera, coming home, all the rest of it, and I have really learned to now face it, to find it, to feel it and to release it. That's one of my mantras for, like my life Find it, feel it, release it. Emotions, fear, resistance you know you, you can. I tried to be the best guardian I can be for my boys and in order to do that, I've got to look at my mental, emotional and energetic health. So if I ignore my emotions or my energy in motion, we've got no hope. So I 

Barbara O'Brien: 57:47

Yeah. For the example of mammals. You know, humans, because of our frontal cortex, we think in a different way. We think a lot more, a lot more abstract things when animals, if they're in danger and they, the horse runs from the danger, you know runs from the mountain lion right and the mountain lion doesn't catch it, and then the horse just goes and he shakes it all off and then it's done until the next mountain lion, like he doesn't carry around the fear every minute. You know, unless we've, unless we've traumatized him as human, you know, with something that's trauma, but he doesn't carry it around. In the wild they don't normally carry that around. They shake it off and they move on. And that's what humans need to do with our fears. But our brains really make that hard. Yeah, this has been so enlightening, and we've so enjoyed talking with you today. Could you please share with us, before we say goodbye, like how we find you, where we can find your book? I'll have all this in the notes but for people listening right now, how do we get in touch with Julianne and where do we find the information that you've been teaching us today?

Julie- Anne Thorne: 58:50

Sure. So thank you very much, Barbara again, for having me. It's been lovely to spend some time with you talking about cats. So naturally cats is on Facebook and Instagram. It's just at naturally cats. My website is wwwnaturallycatscouk. The Cat Chakra Book and the Aromatic Cat Book. You can get both of those from my website or actually any online retailer Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Waterstones they've all got them and if people want to work with me, they can join me for my Become a Soul-Ed Cat Guardian program. So, it's an opportunity for people to do the work on themselves, to delve deeper into their emotional, mental health, to be able to come out of their head and come into their heart and to work with the soul of their cat.

Barbara O'Brien: 59:36

Oh, come out of their head and into their heart. Wow, we would all feel so much better if we could do that, because we want to. Well, this is wonderful. And again, Julie, thank you so much for coming on our show as we grow. I bet we'll come back again, and we'll talk some more again and everyone go take a look at Julie's information and you and your cats will be happier for it.

Julie- Anne Thorne: 1:00:00

Absolutely. Thank you again, Barbara, it's been lovely.

Barbara O'Brien: 1:00:09

Have a great day.