WEBVTT
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Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien.
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I'm an animal trainer and photographer, and I'd like to welcome you to the Empathetic Trainer.
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Hello everyone and welcome back to the Empathetic Trainer Podcast.
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Today's guest is Rachel Winchaser.
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Rachel is the author of Principles of Rewilding, Horsemanship from Nature, a journey into core beliefs and natural wisdom.
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She is the steward of Winchester Ranch in Spain, where she cares for a rare herd of Spanish Mustangs.
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Her work is rooted in the idea of rewilding, not as a method or a quick fix, but as a way of returning to presence, sensitivity, and awareness in the horse-human relationship.
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Well, I am all about this, Rachel.
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I am all about this.
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Learning from my own half-feral uh uh Morgan horses that I got from a ranch in Montana.
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They they they have taught me a lot about being present.
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And and boy, do they tell you if you're not.
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So we want to learn all about that.
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Um I want to show everyone, of course, it's blurry because of the way the camera works.
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Let's see if we can get it in there.
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Um, Rachel's book.
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It's called The Principles of Rewilding.
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Um, it's a great read.
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So much to unpack in this book, Rachel.
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Uh so we're we're grateful.
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Um, I've already got like little sticky notes with my favorite quotes.
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Brilliant.
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So I think that is my perfect view of the book.
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Dirty, scribbled on, sticky notes.
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It's my vision that it becomes other people, it's not mine anymore.
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Well, that's great.
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Well, what I want to talk about first is like tell us about you.
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How did you get into this and tell us where you are?
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Um, I'm here in rural Wisconsin, so um we're and you're across the co you know, across the ocean from us.
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Uh so appreciate uh the time difference.
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And uh so tell us about where you where you are and how you got started and how this came about, what you're doing right now.
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Okay, so uh we are in rural Spain.
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We're about two and a half hours south of Barcelona on the east coast, but in the mountains, in the hills.
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We live in deep forest.
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Um I moved to Spain when I was about 18, 19 years old.
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It was a bit on a bit of a whim.
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And I I you know I'm convinced that I was a Spaniard in a different life because I feel so at home on in this country and on this land.
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Um and I think it because it takes me back to my childhood and how I grew up, which was very um well, probably feral, most people would have c would have called it.
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Um, you know, we live off grid.
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And the reason specifically why we're in this region, in this area, is because of the Spanish Mustangs, because this is one of their original environments um that they would have evolved in.
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Um because the Spanish Mustang was lost to Spain about 300 years ago.
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So the herd that we have here is the only herd in Spain, it's a dream to reintroduce them.
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They're not wild, they're domestic but undiluted is is how I like to describe them because they are so close to their nature, they're so close to horse.
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They haven't been through any breeding program that has reduced them to um buttons and push and go and and that loss of self.
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Um but yeah, it is um and this the environment that we have here, the the the forage, the plants are all part of how they would have it would have evolved, like I say.
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So the just a really brief history because otherwise I could I could tell a podcast just on this on its own.
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Um in these are the horses that the conquestors sent to America to discover America.
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And eventually they were, like I say, they were lost to Spain, and they were also becoming very um lost in America until obviously that they were adopted by a lot of the tribes and they became the Indian ponies.
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And I fell in love with the story, the romantic uh romantic side of it, and Charlie, who is the heart and soul of this ranch and why we're here, why it all began this this whole um mission really arrived in my life the time that I needed him.
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So although my life has been quite eclectic, I've always come back for horses and I've always been healed by horses.
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They've always been very healing for me.
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And there was a moment in my life that I was um I was asked by my partner, what's gonna get you out of this deep hole?
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It's due to bereavement and grief, but again, that's a big story.
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And I said, I need a I need to get near horses because it was a very rare moment in my life that I I had no horses in my personal horses in my life.
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I completely understand that.
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Which is something similar, totally good.
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Ah, okay.
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And so I started looking and um I was looking for the Spanish horses.
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I had Spanish horses before, and I loved the Spanish horses and how they how they think.
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And then I came across the Spanish Mustang, and it just grew from there.
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And yeah, the 10-year-old girl in me, little girl in me, decided I know what I'm gonna do.
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I'm gonna set up a ranch and set up a reservation and I'm gonna bring them back to Spain.
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That's amazing.
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Um, we're we're lucky that near me, maybe 10 miles away, is a gal who has um tiger mustangs, which are Spanish Mustangs from the Kyger range.
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And she has um some studs and some mares, and she's carefully breeding and they are and she uses a very uh positive, wonderful relationship-based training with them.
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And uh just just watching their relationship because there's not a lot of it's it's all an agreement, and it's it's beautiful.
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And um, so we're gonna have her as a pod guest guest sometime.
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But I I've seen them, at least the ones here in America, I've seen them in person.
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And uh the bone, the structure, the hooves, personality, um, wow, you know, just absolutely love them.
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But I think um, you know, I felt like I knew quite a lot about horses.
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I had my first pony at three, I I grew up with them, they were part of the family tradition, is how we how we lived.
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Um, but these guys, which is probably what she's also experiencing, you cannot do it any other way but through relationships.
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They are so clear about what they need as a horse, and the change in me with them and how I approach the other horses in my care, which you know, my clients' horses has made such a big difference, and really that's where the book came from.
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I I say that I you know, I wrote the book, though the words are mine on paper, but it's only through me and it is from them because a shift in the in the mindset of how how the nature, the nature of us, if we can understand our nature and understand our horses' nature and what we share and what we don't share and respect that, be aware of that, these guys have certainly taught me that lesson.
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In fact, our foundation stallion here came from America.
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We actually um brought him over.
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Well that's so this is so interesting that they've come full circle.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So that that part's pretty cool.
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So how many Spanish Mustangs do you think are in Spain right now?
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I can tell you there's five, and they're all mine.
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They're all here at the ranch.
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That's it.
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Wow.
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Yeah.
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That's amazing.
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That's amazing.
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We had our first baby uh a few years ago.
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Um and uh yeah, so cool.
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Well, I want to talk about one of the quotes very early in the book, but it really struck me.
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And I want and hopefully you can explain better to us.
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Um, it says, Rewilding is not about taming the horse, it is about untaming ourselves.
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And I just thought that was really deep.
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Um we have a 40-acre farm, small farm here in Wisconsin.
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As you can see behind me, it's open and rolling hills, whatever.
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When people come from the cities to visit, because it's you know metro areas, they go like this.
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Because you can feel the land.
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Just starting with the land helps them breathe because people, I think, the the more mechanized and digital and crazy the world gets, the more people crave uh connection to nature.
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And I feel that horses are one of the best connections that we can get from something beyond ourselves, uh, that is that is like nature in its form, because hey, they're nice to be around.
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They're not gonna hurt us like a bear could.
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Uh they're not gonna run away like deer will, usually, right?
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You can interact with this creature that is purely 100% present there in the world.
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He's got no pretense, he's just doing horse things.
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He doesn't know tomorrow.
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So um when they finally come, when they start to talk to the sheep and they talk to the horses, and they, you know, they just you can see it shed.
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They're just shedding, you know.
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So let's let's talk about what you mean by rewilding and how that, you know, kind of give me your low-down on that.
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Well, for me, rewilding is about remembering, it's about remembering who we are as a being first, um, and shedding the domestic side of our daily lives, the pressure that we put ourselves under.
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By remembering what we know deep down that we have forgotten that we are able to connect with ourselves and that desire to connect with our horses or to connect with nature is much more difficult if we are not able to connect with ourselves.
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Awareness of self, awareness of who we are as a being, imperfections and all, because it's important to understand that the seeking of perfection in the connection, whether it is with another person, with a horse, or with the environment, is something that is driven by the um by the the how can I say the unrealness of our daily lives.
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So for me it's about remembering that we were once, our true nature, our true nature isn't take.
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It is wild.
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We are beings.
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And if we can understand that, if we can understand um how sensitive sensitive and how sensory other beings are, including the environment, we can start shedding away some of those layers and get deeper into the understanding that we can also be sensitive.
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I don't believe that we can be as sensitive as a horse, for example.
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They the the sensory input that they the the way they take in the world is obviously different in terms of uh both scientifically, emotionally.
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Oh, for sure.
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Yeah, the more we learn about how horses think in their brain, and I didn't know their sense of smell was as good, if not better, than a dog.
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Absolutely.
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Couldn't figure out why my my feral mare would sniff me from head to toe when I because I train animal actors, so when I come home from the studio, I smell like a whole bunch of different dogs.
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She would sniff me from head to toe, just taking in this information.
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And I'd never had a horse do that, and I found out that that had to do with her sense of smell and that she was kidding.
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Yeah, we we go for a lot of forage walks here, and you can see them tracking, and it's amazing what they find and what they what they are following, and it's been also that's been a really interesting um conversation to have with the youngster because it's been part of his education.
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Because if we take the old horses out, they're gonna leave their smell because obviously they have scent pads in their in their hooves and and they leave their their poop, etc.
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And his ability to understand a new environment based on the smells of his companions has been amazing.
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That whole witnessing isn't just visual for a horse, witnessing is also through all the senses that they carry.
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And that's what I mean again by being sensitive.
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And if we can learn to expand our perception, expand our perception of both ourselves and the environment that we're in, we get back to a slightly less tamed version of ourselves.
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It's more about remembering it.
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Okay, so I have a question.
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Then say there's a scenario, somebody um, you know, gets a new horse and they bring it, they're we're gonna say that it's home, so it's not a boarded situation.
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They can be with the horse, you know, when they can.
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Um and uh how do they start?
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Because say this horse has been trained and maybe could even be a little bit shut down, one or the other, either reactive or shut down to um and kind of maybe so let's pretend this particular horse is a doll in the sense that he's been shut down and he just goes, Okay, this is my fate.
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I mean, there's not much spark there because I'm just gonna do what they need.
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You know, we've seen this.
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Um so they get this horse home.
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How do you suggest what would be practical steps for them?
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And I realize in a book we talk about don't have an agenda, don't have a, you know, it's not a schedule, you know, you're gonna go in.
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But like um, you talk about breathing a lot, which I found to be very, very important when I'm working any kind of animal um to to be matching their breathing and relaxing with them.
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And because horses don't know we're scared of them, you know, like so that you know, your little child or child gets on there and they're like a little bit nervous, you say, Let's take a breath, let's just relax and let's because he doesn't know that you're scared of him.
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So we can he's you know he's gonna be scared too, which likely have nice horses, but you know what I mean?
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Like they don't know we're scared of them, so they get anxious when we're anxious, right?
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So, what would be your suggestion for a practical, you know, or a a way to start, because it's a process.
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The human being.
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Any relationship with uh with a horse starts with how we show up and present ourselves because of how sensitive we are and what they're gonna pick up.
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Um assuming that we've left the horse enough time to settle within this new uh environment, it is about understanding what you take in.
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There is many people say leave your baggage at the gate.
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I prefer to say be aware of your baggage and take it in with you.
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Because the moment you start cutting things out of what you would like to present, you you're showing it something that is not authentic.
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The horse will be fully aware that you are hiding something, you've left something behind.
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That creates the distrust because they horses are constantly having the conversation with themselves, am I safe?
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Not that they're always in that sort of tight flight um panic mode, but am I safe?
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They're only safe when they can fully trust the authenticity of the being in their environment.
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So make sure that when you're turning up, you're turning up with all your imperfections that you're aware of them.
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And by being aware of them, it means that when you start feeling tense, you can take a breath and lower your shoulders, you can re-ground, you can um have that centering.
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You can offer the horse an open heart.
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Then they begin to.
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I love that.
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Offer the horse an open heart.
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That is that's a beautiful visual too.
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Thank you.
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And let the horse be curious.
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Because what we tend to do when we're feeling tense and unsure, and often we're unsure when a new horse comes into our um circle because you don't know them, you don't know their reactions.
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We shut them down and we stop them being curious because we are looking for something still.
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Let them move.
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I mean, movement for horses is such an important part of their well-being, their mental well-being, as part of the physical, you know, you need to move and do their do their steps if you like.
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When a horse is anxious, they need to move.
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If not, they're going to flight, so they're going to do a big movement, or they're going to flight internally.
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And that's when you start to get a much deeper shutdown.
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So allow them to be curious.
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Allow yourself time.
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Which is different than like um different from the theory of, you know, well, move his feet, move his feet, like push him around, move his feet.
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Completely different thing, because then you're then they're thinking about you chasing them, moving their feet, and they're not at all relaxing.
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Um, when I'm working with my young horses, um, they'll when we're walking, and the one will stop.
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And and people would say, Oh, she's being stubborn, she's planting, she's, you know, you get after her, and I'm like, no, she's thinking.
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Give her a moment to get taken.
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And I had to learn this.
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This is all new for me too, because this is in the last few years that I'm learning from wonderful people like you.
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So let her think.
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And she looks around, thinks, takes a breath, and then I say, Walk on.
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And she goes, absolutely.
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And like, I'll climb a tree with you.
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You know, I mean, I absolutely love her that way.
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Now, a different horse that is older that had different, because I get this one as a yearling, and she was one of the feral Morgans from Montana.
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Um, the other one that came older and had more human experience, but wasn't necessarily positive human experience.
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She's six now, and um, I'm still, I feel afraid of her still because she can be reactive, right?
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Now that's my issue.
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But then I realize it, I recognize it, and I say, Rita, I'm still a little scared of you.
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I'm trying to like be, you know, whatever.
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But when my trainer comes, who is uh I've had her on my podcast and she uh does liberty work and and it's beautiful relationships with horses, you know, the way I'm trying to learn to be better.
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She gets up with Rita and Rita goes, Oh, thank God you're here.
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Oh, I can finally feel feel safe and relaxed, and I can do these things because you are 100% you, you know, to to this trainer.
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And I love watching them.
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I just not there yet with her, you know, just this one.
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The other one, I'm like, we're 100%, we're together, we're you know, I feel great with her.
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So it's just I'm working on it.
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It's not the horse.
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Yeah, well, she senses it, she senses that that it that insecurity.
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And the herd only functions when they're all they know what they are best at and they know what they're doing, and that the whole herd can, when necessary, work as one.
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When there is a member of the herd that isn't part of that, and this is I think when you get you also see this when you introduce new horses to herds, and you have to give them time to settle and find that oneness again.
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That's when there is imbalance.
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And I would suggest that maybe that is what she's feeling is that okay, this energy is imbalanced for me, so therefore I cannot rely on it.
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And what I do like what you just said is that you you you talk to do you you talk to her and you say, you know, I'm s I'm a little bit um still unsure about this situation, still unsure about you.
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:55.359
Because that's really powerful, because a lot of people say you shouldn't be talking around horses because they don't understand your words.
00:20:55.759 --> 00:20:57.440
Of course they don't they they feel it.
00:20:57.839 --> 00:20:58.799
Yes, yes.
00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:03.039
They don't understand the actual word, but the energy you give them.
00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:05.119
That's what they read.
00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:10.720
And then they start giving you more space to evolve within that.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:15.759
And once they've given you that space, it's only a matter of time before you become the one.
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:24.079
And you also talk about um what other trainers have talked about too, is called match with what they refer to as matching steps.
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:33.680
So when you're walking, you're matching their energy and they're kind of wandering, and you're just you know walking with them, matching that like herds do, horses do that with each other.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:35.920
If you watch them, they'll get in sync with each other.
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.799
How does that benefit your relationship?
00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:41.920
It may it well, it's just two things.
00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:54.240
I like to call it synchronizing because it's not just about the step, because if we're we are standing and having a moment, then we can synchronize breath, we can synchronize posture, we can synchronize energy.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:22:03.680
So it's not just a case of walking because I try not to make it so rigid because people just then concentrate on their feet.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:09.599
Guilty because you're like, Oh, I'm not really quite keeping up, and then you know, and then I get anxious, right?
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:13.599
Exactly, and that anxiety creates the bigger rift.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:20.319
So, right, yes, it's nice to match and be in sync, and when the more you practice it, the more you realize you're doing it.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:28.079
If you people that go away and and start videoing themselves, they'll send me videos and say, Oh my god, look, we're matching steps, we're perfectly in sync.
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:33.599
I didn't even think I was, I wasn't practicing that because you just get into rhythm.
00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:56.559
It keeps you there in the moment, it keeps you um connected in a way that there is um this sort of invisible ribbon between the two of you, and what they feel is that security of if I turn right, she's going to come with me.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:05.359
What's interesting is when we practice this enough is that when we turn left, they come with you.
00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:07.599
They will find the sink with you.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:10.480
That is that is the best feeling.
00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:18.960
It is um mine are mine have uh 24-7 pasture and forage and friends and nobody's in stalls or anything like that.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:25.759
And so when I go out in the paddock, the the youngster that I'm met, I have nine horses right now, but they're all Morgans.
00:23:25.839 --> 00:23:30.720
Um, and they're all old style Morgans, so similar in body type to your Mustangs.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:38.720
And uh, you know, Morgans can be compared to Iberian horses as far as the old style Morgans, you know, with the way they move.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:42.480
And and I I do love the Spanish horses in general.
00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.599
Anyway, she follows me around the paddock.
00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.680
It's like the best feeling because it's like I'm gonna go over, I don't have to even talk to her.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.200
She just finds me and we just walk around and we do our things and da da da.
00:23:53.759 --> 00:24:05.039
And then the other one comes, and pretty soon I've got four or five of them, and it's this wonderful energy of like nobody's got a halter, nobody has a lead, they just want, and I'm not feeding them, so it's not about like you're gonna feed me this minute, you know.
