Rachel Windchaser - Remembering Who We are Through Horses S3 E26

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Barbara O’Brien: 0:14
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer, and I'd like to welcome you to the Empathetic Trainer.

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Barbara O’Brien: 0:27
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Empathetic Trainer Podcast. Today's guest is Rachel Windchaser. Rachel is the author of Principles of Rewilding, Horsemanship from Nature, a journey into core beliefs and natural wisdom. She is the steward of Windchaser Ranch in Spain, where she cares for a rare herd of Spanish Mustangs. Her work is rooted in the idea of rewilding, not as a method or a quick fix, but as a way of returning to presence, sensitivity, and awareness in the horse-human relationship. Well, I am all about this, Rachel. I am all about this. Learning from my own half-feral uh uh Morgan horses that I got from a ranch in Montana. They they they have taught me a lot about being present. And and boy, do they tell you if you're not. So, we want to learn all about that. Um I want to show everyone, of course, it's blurry because of the way the camera works. Let's see if we can get it in there. Um, Rachel's book. It's called The Principles of Rewilding. Um, it's a great read. So much to unpack in this book, Rachel. Uh so we're we're grateful. Um, I've already got like little sticky notes with my favorite quotes.

Rachel Windchaser: 1:34
Brilliant. I think that is my perfect view of the book. Dirty, scribbled on, sticky notes. It's my vision that it becomes other people, it's not mine anymore.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:46
Well, that's great. Well, what I want to talk about first is like tell us about you. How did you get into this and tell us where you are? Um, I'm here in rural Wisconsin, so um we're and you're across the co you know, across the ocean from us. Uh so appreciate uh the time difference. And uh so tell us about where you where you are and how you got started and how this came about, what you're doing right now.

Rachel Windchaser: 2:10
Okay, so uh we are in rural Spain. We're about two and a half hours south of Barcelona on the east coast, but in the mountains, in the hills. We live in deep forest. Um I moved to Spain when I was about 18, 19 years old. It was a bit on a bit of a whim. And I I you know I'm convinced that I was a Spaniard in a different life because I feel so at home on in this country and on this land. Um and I think it because it takes me back to my childhood and how I grew up, which was very um well, probably feral, most people would have called it. Um, you know, we live off grid. And the reason specifically why we're in this region, in this area, is because of the Spanish Mustangs, because this is one of their original environments um that they would have evolved in. Um because the Spanish Mustang was lost to Spain about 300 years ago. So, the herd that we have here is the only herd in Spain, it's a dream to reintroduce them. They're not wild, they're domestic but undiluted is is how I like to describe them because they are so close to their nature, they're so close to horse. They haven't been through any breeding program that has reduced them to um buttons and push and go and and that loss of self. Um but yeah, it is um and this the environment that we have here, the the the forage, the plants are all part of how they would have it would have evolved, like I say. So, the just a really brief history because otherwise I could I could tell a podcast just on this on its own. Um in these are the horses that the conquestors sent to America to discover America. And eventually they were, like I say, they were lost to Spain, and they were also becoming very um lost in America until obviously that they were adopted by a lot of the tribes and they became the Indian ponies. And I fell in love with the story, the romantic uh romantic side of it, and Charlie, who is the heart and soul of this ranch and why we're here, why it all began this this whole um mission really arrived in my life the time that I needed him. So, although my life has been quite eclectic, I've always come back for horses, and I've always been healed by horses. They've always been very healing for me. And there was a moment in my life that I was um I was asked by my partner, what's gonna get you out of this deep hole? It's due to bereavement and grief, but again, that's another story. And I said, I need a I need to get near horses because it was a very rare moment in my life that I I had no horses in my personal horses in my life.

Barbara O’Brien: 5:31
I completely understand that. Which is something similar, totally good.

Rachel Windchaser: 5:35
Ah, okay. And so, I started looking and um I was looking for the Spanish horses. I had Spanish horses before, and I loved the Spanish horses and how they how they think. And then I came across the Spanish Mustang, and it just grew from there. And yeah, the 10-year-old girl in me, little girl in me, decided I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna set up a ranch and set up a reservation and I'm gonna bring them back to Spain.

Barbara O’Brien: 6:00
That's amazing. Um, we're we're lucky that near me, maybe 10 miles away, is a gal who has um tiger mustangs, which are Spanish Mustangs from the Kyger range. And she has um some studs and some mares, and she's carefully breeding, and they are and she uses a very uh positive, wonderful relationship-based training with them. And uh just just watching their relationship because there's not a lot of it's it's all an agreement, and it's it's beautiful. And um, so we're gonna have her as a pod guest guest sometime. But I I've seen them, at least the ones here in America, I've seen them in person. And uh the bone, the structure, the hooves, personality, um, wow, you know, just absolutely love them.

Rachel Windchaser: 6:44
But I think um, you know, I felt like I knew quite a lot about horses. I had my first pony at three, I I grew up with them, they were part of the family tradition, is how we how we lived. Um, but these guys, which is probably what she's also experiencing, you cannot do it any other way but through relationships. They are so clear about what they need as a horse, and the change in me with them and how I approach the other horses in my care, which you know, my clients' horses has made such a big difference, and really that's where the book came from. I I say that I you know, I wrote the book, though the words are mine on paper, but it's only through me and it is from them because a shift in the in the mindset of how how the nature, the nature of us, if we can understand our nature and understand our horses' nature and what we share and what we don't share and respect that, be aware of that, these guys have certainly taught me that lesson. In fact, our foundation stallion here came from America. We actually um brought him over.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:02
Well that's so this is so interesting that they've come full circle.

Rachel Windchaser: 8:06
Yes. Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:08
So, that that part's pretty cool. So how many Spanish Mustangs do you think are in Spain right now?

Rachel Windchaser: 8:14
I can tell you there's five, and they're all mine. They're all here at the ranch. That's it.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:21
Wow.

Rachel Windchaser: 8:22
Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:23
That's amazing. That's amazing.

Rachel Windchaser: 8:25
We had our first baby uh a few years ago. Um and uh yeah, so.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:32
Well, cool. I want to talk about one of the quotes very early in the book, but it really struck me. And I want and hopefully you can explain better to us. Um, it says, “Rewilding is not about taming the horse, it is about untaming ourselves.” And I just thought that was really deep. Um we have a 40-acre farm, small farm here in Wisconsin. As you can see behind me, it's open and rolling hills, whatever. When people come from the cities to visit, because it's you know metro areas, they go like this. Because you can feel the land. Just starting with the land helps them breathe because people, I think, the the more mechanized and digital and crazy the world gets, the more people crave uh connection to nature. And I feel that horses are one of the best connections that we can get from something beyond ourselves, uh, that is that is like nature in its form, because hey, they're nice to be around. They're not gonna hurt us like a bear could. Uh they're not gonna run away like deer will, usually, right? You can interact with this creature that is purely 100% present there in the world. He's got no pretense; he's just doing horse things. He doesn't know tomorrow. So, um when they finally come, when they start to talk to the sheep and they talk to the horses, and they, you know, they just you can see it shed. They're just shedding, you know. So, let's let's talk about what you mean by rewilding and how that, you know, kind of give me your low-down on that.

Rachel Windchaser: 10:03
Well, for me, rewilding is about remembering, it's about remembering who we are as a being first, um, and shedding the domestic side of our daily lives, the pressure that we put ourselves under. By remembering what we know deep down that we have forgotten that we are able to connect with ourselves and that desire to connect with our horses or to connect with nature is much more difficult if we are not able to connect with ourselves. Awareness of self, awareness of who we are as a being, imperfections and all, because it's important to understand that the seeking of perfection in the connection, whether it is with another person, with a horse, or with the environment, is something that is driven by the um by the the how can I say the unrealness of our daily lives. So, for me it's about remembering that we were once, our true nature, our true nature isn't tame. It is wild. We are beings. And if we can understand that, if we can understand um how sensitive sensitive and how sensory other beings are, including the environment, we can start shedding away some of those layers and get deeper into the understanding that we can also be sensitive. I don't believe that we can be as sensitive as a horse, for example. They the the sensory input that they the the way they take in the world is obviously different in terms of uh both scientifically, emotionally.

Barbara O’Brien: 12:13
Oh, for sure. Yeah, the more we learn about how horses think in their brain, and I didn't know their sense of smell was as good, if not better, than a dog.

Rachel Windchaser: 12:19
Absolutely.

Barbara O’Brien: 12:20
Couldn't figure out why my my feral mare would sniff me from head to toe when I because I train animal actors, so when I come home from the studio, I smell like a whole bunch of different dogs. She would sniff me from head to toe, just taking in this information. And I'd never had a horse do that, and I found out that that had to do with her sense of smell and that she was kidding.

Rachel Windchaser: 12:39
Yeah, we we go for a lot of forage walks here, and you can see them tracking, and it's amazing what they find and what they what they are following, and it's been also that's been a really interesting um conversation to have with the youngster because it's been part of his education. Because if we take the old horses out, they're gonna leave their smell because obviously they have scent pads in their in their hooves and and they leave their their poop, etc. And his ability to understand a new environment based on the smells of his companions has been amazing. That whole witnessing isn't just visual for a horse; witnessing is also through all the senses that they carry. And that's what I mean again by being sensitive. And if we can learn to expand our perception, expand our perception of both ourselves and the environment that we're in, we get back to a slightly less tamed version of ourselves. It's more about remembering it.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:47
Okay, so I have a question. Then say there's a scenario, somebody um, you know, gets a new horse and they bring it, they're we're gonna say that it's home, so it's not a boarded situation. They can be with the horse, you know, when they can. Um and uh how do they start? Because say this horse has been trained and maybe could even be a little bit shut down, one or the other, either reactive or shut down to um and kind of maybe so let's pretend this particular horse is dull in the sense that he's been shut down and he just goes, Okay, this is my fate. I mean, there's not much spark there because I'm just gonna do what they need. You know, we've seen this. Um so they get this horse home. How do you suggest what would be practical steps for them? And I realize in a book we talk about don't have an agenda, don't have a, you know, it's not a schedule, you know, you're gonna go in. But like um, you talk about breathing a lot, which I found to be very, very important when I'm working any kind of animal um to to be matching their breathing and relaxing with them. And because horses don't know we're scared of them, you know, like so that you know, your little child or child gets on there and they're like a little bit nervous, you say, Let's take a breath, let's just relax and let's because he doesn't know that you're scared of him. So, we can he's you know he's gonna be scared too, which likely have nice horses, but you know what I mean? Like they don't know we're scared of them, so they get anxious when we're anxious, right? So, what would be your suggestion for a practical, you know, or a a way to start, because it's a process.

Rachel Windchaser: 15:12
It always starts with the human being. Any relationship with uh with a horse starts with how we show up and present ourselves because of how sensitive we are and what they're gonna pick up. Um assuming that we've left the horse enough time to settle within this new uh environment, it is about understanding what you take in. There is many people say leave your baggage at the gate. I prefer to say be aware of your baggage and take it in with you. Because the moment you start cutting things out of what you would like to present, you you're showing it something that is not authentic. The horse will be fully aware that you are hiding something, you've left something behind. That creates the distrust because they horses are constantly having the conversation with themselves, am I safe? Not that they're always in that sort of tight flight um panic mode, but am I safe? They're only safe when they can fully trust the authenticity of the being in their environment. So, make sure that when you're turning up, you're turning up with all your imperfections that you're aware of them. And by being aware of them, it means that when you start feeling tense, you can take a breath and lower your shoulders, you can re-ground, you can um have that centering. You can offer the horse an open heart. Then they begin to.

Barbara O’Brien: 16:56
Well, I love that. Offer the horse an open heart. That is that's a beautiful visual too.

Rachel Windchaser: 17:02
Thank you. And let the horse be curious. Because what we tend to do when we're feeling tense and unsure, and often we're unsure when a new horse comes into our um circle because you don't know them, you don't know their reactions. We shut them down and we stop them being curious because we are looking for something still. Let them move. I mean, movement for horses is such an important part of their well-being, their mental well-being, as part of the physical, you know, you need to move and do their do their steps if you like. When a horse is anxious, they need to move. If not, they're going to flight, so they're going to do a big movement, or they're going to flight internally. And that's when you start to get a much deeper shutdown. So, allow them to be curious. Allow yourself time.

Barbara O’Brien: 18:01

Which is different than like um different from the theory of, you know, well, move his feet, move his feet, like push him around, move his feet. Completely different thing, because then you're then they're thinking about you chasing them, moving their feet, and they're not at all relaxing. Um, when I'm working with my young horses, um, they'll when we're walking, and the one will stop. And and people would say, oh, she's being stubborn, she's planting, she's, you know, you get after her, and I'm like, no, she's thinking. Give her a moment to take in.  And I had to learn this. This is all new for me too, because this is in the last few years that I'm learning from wonderful people like you. So, let her think. And she looks around, thinks, takes a breath, and then I say, walk on. And she goes, absolutely. And like, I'll climb a tree with you. You know, I mean, I absolutely love her that way. Now, a different horse that is older that had different, because I get this one as a yearling, and she was one of the feral Morgans from Montana. Um, the other one that came older and had more human experience but wasn't necessarily positive human experience. She's six now, and um, I'm still, I feel afraid of her still because she can be reactive, right? Now that's my issue. But then I realize it, I recognize it, and I say, Rita, I'm still a little scared of you. I'm trying to like be, you know, whatever. But when my trainer comes, who is uh I've had her on my podcast and she uh does liberty work and and it's beautiful relationships with horses, you know, the way I'm trying to learn to be better. She gets up with Rita and Rita goes, oh, thank God you're here. Oh, I can finally feel feel safe and relaxed, and I can do these things because you are 100% you, you know, to to this trainer. And I love watching them. I just not there yet with her, you know, just this one. The other one, I'm like, we're 100%, we're together, we're you know, I feel great with her. So, it's just I'm working on it. It's not the horse.

Rachel Windchaser: 19:49
Yeah, well, she senses it, she senses that that it that insecurity. And the herd only functions when they're all they know what they are best at and they know what they're doing, and that the whole herd can, when necessary, work as one. When there is a member of the herd that isn't part of that, and this is I think when you get you also see this when you introduce new horses to herds, and you have to give them time to settle and find that oneness again. That's when there is imbalance. And I would suggest that maybe that is what she's feeling is that okay, this energy is imbalanced for me, so therefore I cannot rely on it. And what I do like what you just said is that you you you talk to do you you talk to her, and you say, you know, I'm s I'm a little bit um still unsure about this situation, still unsure about you. Because that's really powerful, because a lot of people say you shouldn't be talking around horses because they don't understand your words. Of course they do.

Barbara O’Brien: 20:56
They they feel it.

Rachel Windchaser: 20:58
Yes, yes. They don't understand the actual word, but the energy you give them. That's what they read. And then they start giving you more space to evolve within that. And once they've given you that space, it's only a matter of time before you become the one.

Barbara O’Brien: 21:19
And you also talk about um what other trainers have talked about too, is called match with what they refer to as matching steps. So, when you're walking, you're matching their energy and they're kind of wandering, and you're just you know walking with them, matching that like herds do, horses do that with each other. If you watch them, they'll get in sync with each other. How does that benefit your relationship?

Rachel Windchaser: 21:40
It may it well, it's just two things. I like to call it synchronizing because it's not just about the step, because if we're we are standing and having a moment, then we can synchronize breath, we can synchronize posture, we can synchronize energy. So, it's not just a case of walking because I try not to make it so rigid because people just then concentrate on their feet.

Barbara O’Brien: 22:05
Guilty because you're like, oh, I'm not really quite keeping up, and then you know, and then I get anxious, right?

Rachel Windchaser: 22:10
Exactly, and that anxiety creates the bigger rift. So.

Barbra O’Brien: 22:13
Right.  

Rachel Windchaser: 22:15

Yes, it's nice to match and be in sync, and when the more you practice it, the more you realize you're doing it. If you people that go away and and start videoing themselves, they'll send me videos and say, oh my god, look, we're matching steps, we're perfectly in sync. I didn't even think I was, I wasn't practicing that because you just get into rhythm. It keeps you there in the moment, it keeps you um connected in a way that there is um this sort of invisible ribbon between the two of you, and what they feel is that security of if I turn right, she's going to come with me. What's interesting is when we practice this enough is that when we turn left, they come with you. They will find the sink with you. That is that is the best feeling.

Barbara O’Brien: 23:10
It is um mine are mine have uh 24-7 pasture and forage and friends and nobody's in stalls or anything like that. And so when I go out in the paddock, the the youngster that I'm met, I have nine horses right now, but they're all Morgans. Um, and they're all old style Morgans, so similar in body type to your Mustangs. And uh, you know, Morgans can be compared to Iberian horses as far as the old style Morgans, you know, with the way they move. And and I I do love the Spanish horses in general. Anyway, she follows me around the paddock. It's like the best feeling because it's like I'm gonna go over, I don't have to even talk to her. She just finds me and we just walk around and we do our things and da da da. And then the other one comes, and pretty soon I've got four or five of them, and it's this wonderful energy of like nobody's got a halter, nobody has a lead, they just want, and I'm not feeding them, so it's not about like you're gonna feed me this minute, you know. Um, it's just we want to be with you. And um, my son who comes and he's um um, you know, in his 30s and he comes and takes care of the farm when we travel, and he goes out there with his guitar and he sits in a chair and he plays the guitar, and all nine of the horses, he's uh and he doesn't even ride anymore, but they stand there and he just that's his piece. And they, you know, the horses seem to really like it. Nobody gets fighting, nobody, you know, they just stand there. It's just the funniest thing. Um, and I find that that's great therapy for him, of course. Horses are great therapy for all of us, but yeah, so I do love that that magic in a sense when they like really want to be with you. You know, it's not about this time, I'm gonna do this and you're gonna comply and da-da-da-da. It's just we're gonna do this together. So, tell us about how you take your horses for a walk. This and then two different ways, like people who have their own area, their own land, that's one thing. But what about when you're boarding and you want to take your horse for a walk or your two horses for a walk? How do you how do you learn to do that without you know?

Rachel Windchaser: 25:10
It is difficult. It is difficult. I mean, for for us here, of course, it's it's easy. We live uh very remotely, and um if I go out uh with one, the others will follow. Um what we do have to be careful with here is obviously the stallions and the mares, because you know, for obvious reasons. Um, but and like you, it's an amazing feeling because they just wander off, and I have I have a recall because they do get out of sight, um, and they do come back and it and it's wonderful. And I the other thing is here we have not it's not my herd, but I uh volunteer with an agro herd, where they um move from from farm to farm, from place to place, um, with a regenerative farming method. So, they are clearing land, fertilizing land, and then they move to another area. And these can be in quite a lot long distance. Um.

Barbara O’Brien: 26:14
That is so interesting. I don't think I don't think I've heard of that over here.

Rachel Windchaser: 26:18
Yeah, and we and we there's the caretaker of the herd, the principal caretaker, and then I go and volunteer as one of the outriders, and then we're there, and there's all these horses just running around, but in in sync, in rhythm, following, and then one will shoot off and one will come back, and um that's an incredible feeling because they are just being the herd, they are just following the the the caretaker who is uh um riding out, and then I'm sweeping behind. Uh it is just a really, really, really beautiful feeling. Um when you're boarding that it is hard because there's so many regulations and um safety issues that you have to comply to. But even a short walk, it's not about the steps you take, it's about the moments that you spend. It's about the time that you breathe with them. It is about the rhythm of the life that you live with them. Horses love the rhythm. The moment that they are in rhythm, they are in a sense of a state of calm. The only times horses live out of rhythm is when they're fighting or when they're frightened. Or play. Play is slightly different because obviously that's a fun thing. But if you watch your horses, they live a life of rhythm, they walk in rhythm, they graze in rhythm, they breathe in rhythm, they trot in rhythm, they move in rhythm. And that goes back to also being in sync with them because you're showing and sharing that with them. It's just another way of being a safe space for them. So, it's difficult to talk about boarding facilities without actually seeing what they've got uh and walking out. So, you can have that sort of same feeling with them by just spending time.

Barbara O’Brien: 28:20
Right. But the key the key would be is is spending undemanding time.

Rachel Windchaser: 28:25
Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not um it's it's about quality as well as opposed to quantity, which is a really cliched thing to say, but for our horses it is so true. And consistency, not routine. Routine dulls their mind. And when I what I mean by routine is so, for example, let's say you feed your horses at five o'clock every day, so by five past five they're anxious. Because there is no ability or no room for them to feel the flexibility in the relationship. Consistency is okay, it doesn't really matter what time it is because I know she'll turn up. And when you offer them that consistency within a non-demanding conversation, so you're not asking anything of them, they are liable to give you a lot more time and a lot more of their personal energy in that moment. They're gonna hang out with you more emotionally, mentally, and also.

(Music) 29:35

Barbara O’Brien: 29:37
Oh, we were talking about where to find your book, and you said it's available on Amazon and on the on your website, which we will put it links in the uh show notes and stuff so people can find it.  You also had an ebook, a free ebook online, which I thought was very generous, and that's um kind of how I uh I think I found you on Facebook to begin with. Yeah. And then went and looked at that and I went, oh, I gotta talk to her. So, so that's good. Let's talk about your courses that you do.

Rachel Windchaser: 30:04
Okay, so um I have um a five-step program which is based all around rewilding. Rewild coaching. And it builds um we spend four or five weeks in each of the step’s building, um going deeper into um paralleling I think both the science and the energy and the mystery of how we can become better people and better horse people. Um it's really about how we can tap into our own abilities to understand, which I know I repeat a lot, but it really is so so important. And that takes us all the way through the senses, emotional resilience, all about how we can have better understanding. There is also a course that I do called The Power of Touch. One thing that I've learned over the years is just how important touches to our horses. We are very tactile beings, so we end up touching our horses before we do anything else. Everything's about doing and a lot of that is about touching. And again, if you notice how horses interact with each other, apart from when they're grooming or when they're in play or having a physical interaction, that is rare. 85% of the time they're just close. They are not touching; they're just holding space for each other. The comfort and the security they find is not through the touch, it's through that consistency and that rhythm that we were talking about. And one of the things that we have done to our horses, to our domestic horses, as we have diluted them, is disconnect their mind from their bodies because we don't allow that conversation to follow through. We don't allow that loop of information to complete. We go and halter our horses without thinking about what that haltering means or feels like to that horse in that moment. We saddle our horses without thinking or preparing them with that um weight on their backs. It's a simple, really simple exercise that I do and it's and it changes people's perceptions enormously. And that is I ask them to hold their earlobe with one with uh one of their hands and put a little bit of pressure on it not enough to hurt, but just a little bit of pressure, and then let go and see how your mind has connected to our earlobe, and that you can still feel the sensation in that earlobe, but you're no longer touching it. And that connection of mind and body is so important to our horses to say, this is where I'm coming, this is what I'm doing, this is where I would like to be. But within a dialogue of connecting their mental capacity to understand with the actual physical actions that we want to do. It's just a polite way of saying, do you mind? As opposed to I'm just doing it.

Barbara O’Brien: 33:33
Well, that's wonderful. Um I had uh some visitors uh a couple days ago. There was five children, and they probably range from the age of six to maybe 11, something like that. Uh siblings, and they keep lovely children, and they all wanted to ride a horse. And um, we just built a nice indoor arena so we're able to have a safe environment. And I have just an angel of a horse, an older horse that loves children and stuff. But the best part, the most fun was um, oh it was just a little circle. I mean, it wasn't like riding lessons or anything like that, but was teaching them, helping them understand that we're gonna ask this horse. Like when they got close, first of all, they had to ask permission from the horse, can we reach out and touch you? And the horse was like, yes, please, I like your attention. Here's how we scratch them, here's how we brush them. And this horse thrived on this kind of loveliness. Um, and then uh we saddled her up and I showed them how carefully we saddled her up. We're showing her the saddle pad, we're gonna put the saddle pad on now. Thank you, April. We're that's her name, April. We're gonna put the saddle on now, you know, and we're gonna slowly you know tighten the girds and we're gonna talk to her the whole process. And they were so like sponges because they're just like eating this stuff. It was fun. And then when they get to her and they're on, because she's taller and they're small, they're standing on the mounting block, and I and they want to like get right on. And I said, oh no, no, stand here. First of all, we're gonna take a nice breath and we explain how the breathing gets to them. I said, because if you're anxious, she feels that, and we don't want her to be unhappy. And then we're gonna say, do you mind? We're gonna get on you now, you know. And uh and they were like; they thought that was wonderful. They'd scratch her neck and say, I'm gonna get on you, I'm gonna ride you, because that helped them process what they're gonna do next. And then that their body was prepared, you know, and then they got on, and we just stood there and I said, I want, you know, just take a breath. And then, like when we walked, the smile on their face, and the and the horse was probably smiling too. I mean, I can feel how happy she is to just follow in a circle, and they all got their little rides, and then I said, I'll tell her thank you. And I was just trying to show respect for this other sentient, you know, living creature, which I want all my animals to feel that way. And there's a lot of pushback on what you're trying to do and what other people are trying to do to get us to understand our horses better. Some people feel that this whole approach is like silly waste of time, you're gonna have these bad-mannered horses, you know, um, just a completely different, you know.  And of course, we need to be safe around our horses and they need they need to have a perception of where our body is and where their body is and how we don't collide, you know, and these are all things to work on. But how do you um how do you kind of um encourage thinking that this is a living, breathing thing that we need to be in agreement with as opposed to it's a machine, we can just get out like a motorbike?

Rachel Windchaser: 36:17
Um, I think it's important to understand that their ability to have this conversation with us when we are asking instead of demanding has an energy to it that helps them understand that you're there to collaborate. The collaboration as opposed to compliance doesn't look that different to some people, but to to some of us it's huge. It's absolutely huge. And I think I think we are fearful of I think there's two camps, there's two camps because those that are fearful that they will lose their desire, so they will not be able to achieve their goal as a human being and actually ride. If they follow this path, because I had I get this question a lot, yes, Rachel, but if I follow this, if I go down this horsemanship from nature and follow the the thinking of the horse, etc., does that mean I can't ride? Does that mean I won't be able to do the things I want to do as a human being? And to that I always say, no, because it's not the doing, it's how you do it, it's how you arrive, it's how you approach it. And one key thing, a very practical thing, is that not all of us are you're lucky, I'm lucky, but most people don't have the space that their horses need to move, to get their physical movement in. And sometimes riding in the right way safely can actually be beneficial because a horse gets to move, they get to get to use their body.

Barbara O’Brien: 38:05
Mm-hmm.

Rachel Windchaser: 38:06
And on the other side of that is the relinquishing of boundaries and they get fearful that they are gonna have unsafe horses, pushy horses, and horses that are going to um create problems, particularly if they're in a boarding situation. Because that is difficult. There's nothing wrong with boundaries if they are boundaries that are approached with awareness. Boundaries can be soft when we understand them. The key thing is if our horses are living a life where they're always asking the same question, Am I safe? We also have that same right to live our lives with the same, am I safe? So, when you get around horses, they are massive. They can do a lot of damage, absolutely. But by approaching them with awareness, with soft boundaries, but still boundaries, you can still have a relationship with a horse, you can still be there in in collaboration, you can still ask for willingness, but still have a relationship where as human beings, our domestic horses are part of our lives and and we get to do what we we would like to do. I mean, I ride my horses. And yes, I ride bitless and barefoot and and um in a way that is always through choice, through Charlie, you know, to what where do you want to go today, Charlie? What do you want to do today, champ, or whatever. Um but it's important to realize that that boundaries don't have to be harsh, it don't it doesn't have to be force through boundary, it can be s a soft explanation through boundary. Um and I think it's I think that's an important point to put out there because like I say, I get so many people concerned about yeah, but I'm not gonna be able to do what I want to do and I'm gonna get judged by the other people around me because I'm not going to be progressing and and we all you know the human um how we you know the the human you're gonna have to edit this bit out, but um our desire to always progress, to always move forward is so strong because we're in competition. If we're not in competition with somebody else, we're in competition with ourselves. And it can be really stifling and it's it's a destroyer of relationships in the end. But it's important to understand that if we give it a go, you will um I mean, this way of being is a perfect example of the tortoise and the hare because what you get is a foundation, what you get is a relationship, and what you get is exactly like what you're experiencing with your horses is that willingness for them to say, okay, let's give it a go, because I really trust this relationship because they know if they're not feeling okay, you're gonna listen. And that’s.

Barbara O’Brien: 41:19
Yeah, with exactly with my young horse. Um, they're just four years old now. When I try to put her back after we've gone for a walk or we've done some stuff, you know, walking around the farm. I'm not she's not been sat back yet because she's just four and I'm careful with her growing. But anyway, um, getting closer to short periods of being back, uh, she doesn't want to go back into the barn or the pasture, the paddock. She doesn't want to go; she wants to keep playing the game. It's like, we're having so much fun. Why are you gonna put me back? I don't want to go back. Even that's where her friends are, that's where the food is, the pasture. She's like, I really enjoy our time together. And of course, that's why I'm madly in love with her to have a horse that's so connected and wants to be with me. I mean, that's a gift, and it's so much fun.

Rachel Windchaser: 42:00
Absolutely. I've got my youngster is now four and a couple of months, and again, like you, he's not been doing anything. I always say he's been colouring outside the lines. We are now slowly colouring inside the lines. We're having a few more formal conversations. So, he has had a bare back pad, very soft bareback pad on him.

Barbara O’Brien: 42:21
Exactly, same principle. Yep.

Rachel Windchaser: 42:24
And um what is amazing is I showed it to him, he sniffed it. He smells of a million horses because it's what a tool I do I use a lot. Um and we went through the whole conversation of showing, of feeling, of you know, connecting the mind to the body, connecting the mind to the items, connecting the mind. He's doing all those conversations, placing it on his back, nothing, because he trusts the moment and he knows that okay, this feels okay. Did up the did up the cinch, nothing. There's no reaction whatsoever. And I had a friend here, and she goes, oh my god, that was boring. No, that was amazing. That was amazing, and he's so comfortable with this bare back pad. Is the other day we went um for a walk, so that's my you know, the the I have this principle of doing familiar things in familiar spaces and then doing familiar things in not familiar spaces because it gives you an indication where your baseline is. So, now we're going for walks with this bareback pad. So, he knows the walk, that's familiar, and he knows the bareback pad, that's familiar. Now we're putting the two together. So, now the bareback pad in this familiar place, but that's unfamiliar, but you can connect the two as being a good experience, and so there is no reaction. So, he's just responding to the conversation. He's so cool with it, he's so like glassé with it. I put I did take him back and put him back and took the halter off, you know, and gave him a scratch, turned my back and went, oh no, I've left it, I'd left it on him. Because he was just like, oh, this is cool.

Barbara O’Brien: 44:05
Right.

Rachel Windchaser: 44:06
Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 44:06
Oh, I love that feeling. Um, the same horse I was talking about, the young one, the young one, her name is Tess. Um, last Saturday I had some friends over. We were working horses in the arena, just doing groundwork, um, the youngsters and stuff. And so, we had taken a saddle blanket and a soft rope, just getting her, you know, and we were carefully getting her used to the feeling of just having the soft rope under her belly. And so, we had tied it on um gently, and we were just leading her around, right? Well, I'm leading her, not watching her body language close enough. She lays down to roll, okay? And I went, well, I'm not gonna fight you, it's my fault for not, you know, not paying attention to keeping your head up. So, she rolls, and of course the blanket comes undone and kind of floppily goes to her side and under her belly. And and uh I'm you know, I'm like, oh, this is not good. She's gonna blow up. This is scary to feel all this weird stuff. She stood up and she looked at me and went like, oh dear. I was able to just walk over and take it. I was just going, I remember why I love you so much. Because a different horse, if a saddle had slipped because I wasn't doing things properly, I mean, there would have been some fireworks, you know, because I didn't know any better. But this horse is like, well, you're not gonna hurt me. So, whatever silly things happen, probably can handle it. Because it wasn't causing her pain, it was just a weird sensation, you know. I was just so grateful to taught myself, okay, don't do it that way again. You know, let's be more practical. But I mean, I just I love this relationship we've built. And it's only because over the last few years I've really changed how I thought about horses, and it has helped me so, so much. And I just hope that other people are open to the idea that it can be different.

Rachel Windchaser: 45:43
Yeah. I always say you have to have a curious mind and that open heart and sensible footwork.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:49
There you go, that open heart again. Exactly.

Rachel Windchaser: 45:51
Do anything that you that you please as a partnership with us.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:56
Well, this has been a delightful conversation, Rachel. Um, I really appreciate you taking the time. I um do you uh I'm gonna you're gonna we'll get all of your links, but people can find you on Facebook too.

Rachel Windchaser: 46:07
Absolutely. Uh Rewild Your Horse Spirit, uh Rachel Windchaser. If you if you just search Rachel Windchaser, both my personal page and my um uh business page, and also the Windchaser Ranch Mustang. And I have a group called the Rewilding Circle, um, which is different to the page, it's a it's a little bit more intimate, and it is just a the sharing space. And I do go on there most weeks um with a live and a talk and run through a topic, and there's a few um actual um PDFs and and and free resources in there as well.

Barbara O’Brien: 46:44
Lovely. Okay. Well, it sounds like you're just a uh wonderful resource, and uh we're gonna have to have another podcast all about Spanish Mustang sometime. Um this it's so interesting to me how they got back to Spain and what does people what do people in Spain feel about it? I mean, you know, is that something that interests them? So um that part's really cool that you're preserving something so special. Uh so that's that's really great.

Rachel Windchaser: 47:09
It would be my pleasure.

Barbara O’Brien: 47:11
Okay. Well, thank you so much, Rachel. I really appreciate it.

Rachel Windchaser: 47:15
You're welcome. It's been uh it's been a great opportunity. Thank you for having me.

(Music): 47:19