Chris Lombard - The Power of Patience and Presence in Horse Training - S2 E21

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Barbara O’Brien: 0:14
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer and I'd like to welcome you to The Empathetic Trainer.

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Barbara O’Brien: 0:27
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien and you're listening to The Empathetic Trainer Podcast. Have we got an amazing guest for you today. Chris Lombard is with us and he's an interesting, very exciting brand-new voice, it seems to me, anyway in the horse world about being a better connection, better attunement, better understanding for horses and making their lives better. Chris Lombard is a horse trainer and author. He's written two books, Land of the Horses, a True Story of a Lost Soul and a Life Found. And Horses in Our Stars, a Story of Life, love and the journey within. Chris believes that there is joy, challenge and much opportunity for growth when learning alongside a horse. A truer statement couldn't have been made. Chris, I've had horses for 40-some years. I've been riding since I was 12. Boy, lots of growing pains, lots of learning and then now, within the last three or four years, an incredible journey. So, we certainly want to hear about yours. An incredible journey. So, we certainly want to hear about yours. And from what I understand, from looking at what's out there about you, you didn't even grow up with horses. You started later in life, which probably gave you a completely different perspective and a fresh, brand-new way of looking at them. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

Chris Lombard: 1:40
Sure, sure, Barbara, would love to. Yeah, thank you for having me here on The Empathetic Trainer podcast I'm really excited about this and to talk a little bit about how I began with horses. I didn't touch a horse until I was 26 years old, very much in the state of Maine. But cats cats were my first animal friends and then, while living in the city of Portland, Maine, Maine's largest city when I was 26 years old. I went through a very challenging time in my life. At the time I was as lost as I'd ever been, and during that time I happened to go to a farm where my friend was barn sitting, and while I was there, she said well, I have to go feed the horses. Do you want to come with me? And I thought oh sure, why not? And went out to the barn with her and walked in there and the two horses were eating some hay and I just got lost in the sound of their eating some hay. And I just got lost in the sound of their eating. They would reach down and grab a bite to eat and then stare at me while they chomped, just so content in their life, so content in their life. And then all of a sudden, I heard my friend go oh. I'm ready to go back to the house. You coming and I just kind of woke up and I didn't realize if I was standing there for an hour or for 10 seconds. You know, time seemed to fade away there. And in that moment, I realized that I felt just as content as those horses were, even though, you know, I supposedly had all these challenges and things I was going through in life. But while I was around those horses, they seemed to embody a contentment, a freedom, a peace. No matter what the past was, no matter what the future may or may not be, there was some sort of contentment in the moment that they had going on, that they kind of ignited within me, just in their presence. And so, I walked back to the house with my friend and then, days after that, weeks, I'd have a vision of those two horses. I'd be laying in bed, staring up at the ceiling, and suddenly those two horses would pop, and I said, Chris, what are you doing? You felt this amazing contentment right there. You have to follow it. You have to follow it and looking back at it now. It's such an innocent time in my life because I had no attachments to it whatsoever, Barbara, no thoughts of where it would lead or what it would get me or anything else, I just thought I would like to be around horses and so for the next couple months I took sort of the standard riding lesson and had great fun. And the same thing happened the moment I walked into that barn and started to interact with the horses and just be around them, whether it be just standing with them or standing with them in the field or grooming or tacking them up. I felt that same contentment. And then, pretty soon after that, within a couple months of those riding lessons, I realized I had what I thought these things that had happened in my life that I thought were somewhat devastating. I started to see the flip side and the opportunity that they were leading me into, and I packed everything I could into my car that I really needed and I decided to just drive out West with the idea that I would find interaction and connection and work with horses somehow.

Barbara O’Brien: 5:14
Now that sounds great. You have to understand to the average person that sounds like what? I mean, how do you just hey, mom, dad, friends, I'm going to go be a horse guy, you know. It'd be like saying I'm going to start riding motorcycles and I've never been in one on my life. You know what I mean. It's I mean it's different, but a very scary thought for the people around you, you know. And then you know 26. My son is 26 and him it'd be hard, hard pressed, like what, You're just go what, although I guess I would understand. So, I'm trying to like what made you so brave and what made you know that this is something you had to do?

Chris Lombard: 5:54
It's heart. It's where your heart leads and your heart will have patience with you. Your heart will wait until you're ready, but it certainly won't hide. It'll stay ever present there and the more you learn to slow down and connect to it, the more you learn to hear it, the more courage is born right. Along with that, I believe, the appropriate courage to follow it. And however, many baby steps, I don't think that your heart will set you up with too much to make happen. You know it'll give you just the right steps, and so I took those two years. I drove out West. I ended up staying out there for two years and living in three states Colorado, California, Arizona working on three different horse ranches there.

Barbara O’Brien: 6:34
Wow.

Chris Lombard: 6:35

First as an apprentice trainer and then as a wrangler on a dude ranch and then as a cowboy at the last ranch. Then came back home in 2003 without knowing what I was going to do. I just thought I still wanted to be around horses and I put out an ad on a message board on the internet saying if you need help with your horse, maybe I can help you, and that led to four clients in the summer of 2003. And that's the only advertising I've done to this point. Those four clients led to what I'm doing now. Wow, we're 20 years later.

Barbara O’Brien: 7:09
Well, I understand that when you're good, you know and you're doing the right things like be a success first and the money will follow you know you were just doing your best at being good at what you do and offering what you have to offer and not getting hung up on. You know I have to be at this goal or that goal or make this much money, or you know you're following your heart, like you said, and the heart's usually not about making tons of money, it's just usually not compatible. So, you know, obviously it's a service. An interesting thought comes to me, because some of us are born, whether we know it or not, born with this innate love of horses, like every um so many uh, gals and women especially, um, of course men too, but like they, I didn't expose to horses either until I was like 12, right so, but I knew it, you know, you just know you have to be around them. You have to read all the horse books; you have to beg rides when you go to the county fair. Can I please sit on your horse? You know this, this desperation, this pretending to be a horse. You know putting reins on your bicycle so you can ride. You know, no handed and just direct with the reins and pretend to feed it hay and whatever you know, and all your briar horse statues. And and then, like your family looks at you like you're an oddity because they weren't horse people. And where did this come from? That you knew, you know. So as a child maybe we're and we get connected to a horse some way. We don't analyze it like an adult can, like it hit you as an amazing thing, right, like whoa, a wave, whereas a little child it's not. It's not articulated that much. It's like I have to be with them and I'm not who I am without them you know, and then the great blessing of being able to start to ride when I was 12 and do all that until I was 19 and eloped so I could have a horse, still have the same husband, still have the same horses. You know, 47 years later, well, not the same horses still have horses. So, it's like some of us aren't even aware of it, but you, like, really weren't aware of it. I mean to not have any exposure. You live in a city, you're not connected to nature in the way a rural person might be or somebody who has access as much maybe, and to come across these animals and have that adult awareness, that must have been phenomenal.

Chris Lombard: 9:19

Yeah, yeah, I'll often think about that. You know, it's just the wondrous journey that life is, and what we can understand and what we can connect to, and what we might not even be able to understand, the great unknown of it. And I often feel like you know the things in my life that my heart has kind of drawn me to do, and the journeys and everything along with it. It always feels like coming home. It always feels like coming home. It feels like a place you already knew, even though you might just begin doing it. I often equate it to just that old term of when somebody says, oh, that makes sense.  I always think that's an interesting term when we say that makes sense. We're learning something and we're learning it, and then finally we go oh, I got it. That makes sense now. It's like we're remembering something rather than learning something. It's like we already knew it. We just had to have it be awakened within us somehow.

Barbara O’Brien: 10:15
Oh wow, that's really cool.

Chris Lombard: 10:18
Yeah, it's a beautiful journey of almost just remembering, awakening, getting back to something that's already inside us, rather than becoming something new or learning something new or getting somewhere as we've never been before. These great places, these great journeys, and where they take us seems to be a place that we knew all along. I think you touched on something really beautiful, and when we're young we're not thinking too hard about anything. We're, in the moment, very much like horses. We're able to follow our heart and our calling and where we're pulled at any given moment and everything and so. But then there's that point, you know where, if you demonstrate an interest in something, you are then somewhat beholden to the community and structure around you friend, family, community, where you live. There's so many things that then really create a design of your experience about what you're drawn to do with horses very much being within that realm, with all the different disciplines and styles of riding and teaching methods and just ways of working and being with them. And so, what I've often thought is, if I was into horses as a youngster, I would have been brought up under the tutelage and guidance of somebody and possibly the mold of some sort of style of working with horses and I feel that that I can see how that wasn't my way. Barbara, I can see how that wasn't for me. You know where I feel like I would have been wanting to be off doing my own thing.

Barbara O’Brien: 11:51
Oh yeah, no, I get it.

Chris Lombard: 11:51
See how the universe kind of waited until I was in my 20s and then the universe said OK, now here we go. Humans don't do well with creating their own change and shift. If things are kind of feeling okay and safe, they kind of want to stay right where they are. So, we're going to have to give him some bumps in the road. We're going to have to give him some challenges. We're going to have to show him that these ways of being no longer serve him. And that's usually a very conflicted, challenging, painful time. And it was, you know, and I look back, I thought my life was kind of falling down around me at age 26, when in reality it was opening up. It was showing me it's time to move on and step into a life, Chris, that, trust us, you're going to love.

Barbara O’Brien: 12:36
Yeah, no, but you recently had a post about your horse, Rocky, that you have lost not too long ago. Certainly, every horse person who's had a horse that has really touched their heart, really moved them, really been one that stands out. I've had two of them like that over all these years. That's always so, so hard, but you said this beautiful thing about it when you were reflecting on where he's buried. You said that Rocky said trust this, Chris, trust life, like you always trusted me, and I thought that was incredibly beautiful. And you know because, like you said, horses live in the present and there's no tomorrow, there's no yesterday. I mean, they remember things, but they live in the moment, and they can only be what they are in the moment. There's no pretense or falseness about horses. You know they are what they are and the biggest lie in the human language is I'm fine. When somebody asks you how are you, I'm fine. I mean we won't even acknowledge to each other. You know what we're feeling. Where horses, acknowledge it every minute. And when I read that line where he said trust life, you know, and I understand what you mean by the horse talking to you even from beyond. I mean, I get that I don't put any limits on what's possible. So, trust this, trust life, like you always trusted me I. That's a real letting go, that's a real bravery.

Chris Lombard: 13:59
Thank you for reading those words back to me. That was going straight to my heart there, Barbara. Thank you, it is bravery. I think it's the greatest bravery, I think just living a life in this world is. We are all inherently brave. There's so much unknown, there's so many different things that can be painful in so many different ways. So many challenges, and so I think, just making our way through this life, whether we be animal or human, we're brave, we're brave. And the idea of the unknown that's ahead, and the idea that we're all going to pass away at some point, it's really enough to bring us together. I think there's so many infinite differences among all of us, individual creature, with no two of us alike and we'll never have another being like us in this world, ever again. That simply is amazing. 

Barbara O’Brien: 14:52

It is.

Chris Lombard: 14:53

Infinite beauty of difference that we all have between us. But then there's also an infinite amount of connection between us of oneness, and if we look at one of the great onenesses, it can be found just in the living of a life. And if we look at one of the great onenesses, it can be found just in the living of a life. We're all bound by that oneness of living a life and that we're all going to pass on at some moment. And so I think that bravery you speak of right there, is enough to really be able to see ourselves in another, whether we're looking into a human's eyes or an animal's eyes see some sort of great equality some sort of great equality, that transcends species.

Barbara O’Brien: 15:26
I think so because I'm a person of faith and I believe that we have souls and they're unique to each one of us and they go on forever. So, I believe that. But I also believe animals have souls that are unique and go on forever. And sometimes when you meet a horse, it's like you've always known them and your soul kind of remembers their soul in a way, because it just goes on forever. And sometimes when you meet a horse, it's like you've always known them, you know, and your soul kind of remembers their soul in a way, I mean because it just goes on forever. There's an energy there. I also think that when we get so trapped up in modern technology and we're not talking as human beings, face to face, as much things like that, we lose our connection with the natural world. And when we're ensconced in a city and it's concrete and it's, you know, whatever the excitement and energy of a city, you know, no wonder people seek out the quiet places and I wish that that opportunity was for. That everyone has that opportunity. You know, I work in, I live in, rural Wisconsin. I'm about 75 miles from Minneapolis, which is, you know, a good sized city Minneapolis, St Paul and we have to go there to do our work, which is animal actors. So we'll bring animals there to the studios and we'll do our work and that's fine, we'll go in and everybody's great and the animals are fine, because I'm very careful to make sure that it's all about them, that they're super happy and they have a good time. But when we leave and we start heading away from the city, I just feel all that fall away as well. Any kind of, because I get disconnected from the natural world when I'm in a city. I don't like it. I'm just not a city person. To come back to my farm, as soon as we hit the border of Wisconsin, which starts to become rural pretty quick from Minnesota, and you just drive into the Driftless area which is where I live, which means there was no glaciers, so it's all Hill, it's like Hills and, and you know, ravines and beautiful, beautiful, small little valleys. There you go, anyway, it's beautiful, it's beautiful and I feel myself just go, and then when I finally get home and I go sit out with my sheep or I hang out with my chickens or I go sit with my horses, it's like my church. Everything just melts away and I can connect again. And so, I feel for people that don't have that opportunity. I wish that they could just go a little bit further out, walk amongst trees, put their feet on the ground, be grounded again. Animals are our connection to the natural world, and so when someone says I don't like dogs, I don't like cats, I don't like animals, I don't understand it. Have you not met any nice ones? What happened to you? I want to go like, like not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you that you know you don't like some animal, something you know?

Chris Lombard: 18:01
Yeah, right.

Barbara O’Brien: 18:02
So I get it. I get what you're saying about the whole connected piece of it and how we connect with animals and why it's so important.

Chris Lombard: 18:12
Yeah, yeah, and I have a clipboard that when I go and do clinics, at the beginning of the clinics we do a morning circle and at the end we do an afternoon circle. And many and many times there's many circles throughout the day. We all just afternoon circle and many times there's many circles throughout the day we all just circle up, with or without horses, whenever there's something kind of meaningful, we want to share or talk about. And in the back of that clipboard, written there for years and years, is something I wrote and every now and then what it says is it says remember, Chris, you've never seen it not work. What I'm referring to there is love and connection. Love and connection. I've never seen a human and a horse in whatever unique, individual way. It's happening for them that day, whether they're standing 50 feet apart or whether they're right beside each other, hugging. Whether it be a human talking about them from afar, just looking at them, or whether it be them reaching out their hand and touching the nose of a horse for the first time, whether it be somebody learning how to walk and lead a horse for the first time, or whether it be a high-level rider riding around an arena at a high level. I've never not seen love and connection not happen between a human and a horse, and I think the key is um, the patience and the ability to set it up in the way that's natural for them and their journey together, and not have any stories about how it's supposed to be.

Barbara O’Brien: 19:56

Right.

Chris Lombard: 19:57

How it should be as far as somebody who's helping them to kind of find their way to their own unique spark of connection.

Barbara O’Brien: 20:05
Oh, I love that. And patience. Patience is the hardest thing. It's my biggest fault is being impatient. I know this about myself. It was like everything you know. I'm a border collie by nature and I just went to the job. So that patience is definitely a learned skill, but so gratifying when you just breathe, and you let it happen. So, I understand that. I have sheep and a different podcast we had a gal on that writes books about sheep and stuff and we talked about how most sheep around most humans because they're prey animals are afraid or want to move away or they're just not going to interact, are afraid or want to move away or they're just not going to interact. But if you, I find that my sheep are super tame because I've raised them from little lambs, and they know me right. But if I go to a different herd of sheep and they're not attuned to me because they don't know me, they definitely know there. You know biblically they say they know their master's voice and I really do understand the metaphor. They don't know me. But I find that if I am quiet and patient and just no threat, sit there with no expectation of like, oh, I want to hug all you sheep and I love you, I don't come on, you know, I just wait Eventually because they're going to, they're intelligent animals, they're curious, they're going to come around and you will find that with almost every every domestic, domestic species, for sure, and even wild animals will check you out. I mean, there'll be a distance and they'll be safe, but they will. You know, the a deer looks at you, you know, and if you're quiet, he'll look at you longer, and isn't that the coolest thing? Right?

Chris Lombard: 21:39
Oh, yeah, that is.

Barbara O’Brien: 21:41
Right. And uh, I just joined a group on Facebook about crows and how you can make crows your friends, because you leave little things for them when they start bringing you gifts. And I have no idea about that. I'm going to have to find a crow person to talk to. But it's like, can you imagine having a relationship with a wild bird that just like brings you little trinkets because you left some peanuts out for him over time, right, and so wow, that's the first thing we teach the little ones when they come visit is we're going to be still and quiet. We're not going to run up to the fence. You know we're going to, we're going to have quiet, energy and we're just going to wait. And they're so gratified, the children are so gratified. I've never been around horses. When a horse approaches, you know, and you just that you're right. That moment of like, wow, you know, and it's not forced and it's it's. You know, usually there's a fence between us just for safety, because horses are so big and I have seven of them, and you know. But I love, I love seeing that you know just the patience, patience, and you're exactly right. What you say about distance doesn't matter. You know, the horse knows the human nose, resonate. So, I get that. Well, tell us about your clinics. You wrote on a Facebook post recently about a really cool place in Maine that works with people and horses together and something about how the horses have a lot more freedom than most. And um, you said it was. Uh, there was children's artwork all over. A great energy. I just, I want to be there so much because children and animals are my thing, and you know I'm just like, wow, how do they do this? How does this work, you know? So please tell us about that experience and what that was like, because that sounded like a really cool place, and what the work is that they're doing there and how you helped with that.

Chris Lombard: 23:26
Yeah, that was the Willow Wind Therapeutic Riding Center in Bar Harbor, Maine, and that was what they're doing there. Barbara is exactly what you were just speaking about when you were speaking about having patience and slowing down and all of that. I took a big deep breath while listening to you there, because I find that's what's the struggle for most of us. I feel the struggle coming from a time for many, many years hundreds of years really where human civilization has been all about doing and getting and achieving and building and protecting and defending and uh, just more, more, more, and it came from a very innocent place. It was all about creating safety for ourselves it's all about all about survival, but it really was. It was very hard on the animals and very hard on the horses because we were using them as machinery. Really, it was all about horses and using them for travel and for work and for war and for pulling and for farming and they had to do a job and it was all about how well they could get that done and if they couldn't get. Couldn't get it done. Then a different horse was found, and people did not have time because it was about survival. People did not have time to just sit quietly and share space and let the horse take its time and learn in its own way, and all of these things, and so we're still shifting in this world now beautifully. There's still a lot of friction, there's still a lot of stuff. The change is always a little bit messy, you know, and but we are allowing ourselves now the opportunity, as horses are no longer needed for survival in the same ways and we're able to slow down with them, share space with them and sit with them and connection be the end in itself. We can still want to do a lot of fun adventures with them and riding, driving, all these different things, and even competition and so on and so forth but I think we're learning to let that be guided by the connection, by the relationship.

Barbara O’Brien: 25:44
Yes, that's really what you're saying is everything,

Chris Lombard: 25:47

Yeah, to let that be, to let that blossom in its own time, to almost let that come to us, to let the relationship and the connection with the horse be at the heart of what we're doing and then let what we're going to do be a creation of both us and the horse and have it. You know, like everything else beautiful in the world, feel like it's offered to us, like it comes to us and it's an interest of both us and the horse. And so, at the clinics, and like at Willow in this past weekend, I'm working with people, groups. It's six people at the most in a clinic, six people and their horses, and we usually have four days that we devote to just ourselves and our horses.

Barbara O’Brien: 26:26
Now, there you go right there four days. That is a commitment for someone to say I'm going to go do this clinic for four days, but that means you understand the patient's part of it. I mean they have to be committed to the patient's part of it, because horses aren't on the same, you know, they don't look at their watch and go. We've been standing here for 10 minutes. You know it has to be a sincere, authentic movement. You need patience.

Chris Lombard: 26:55
You got it right there, I mean.

Barbara O’Brien: 26:57
I'm just thinking to myself how could I commit four days? I want to, but it would be like you know. So, these are committed people, which is probably part of the reason that they find it so gratifying in the end, because you can't do this in a half hour.

Chris Lombard: 27:12
You got it right there. You said it.  The idea of four days. You know, when I work with people in a group, I find that the first day some of them are away from home. A lot of them are just meeting each other for the first time. Some of them might just have a couple months with the horse that they have. Some have many years. Regardless, we all have our stories, we all have our guards, we all have our walls All these things we know about and a lot we don't know about, that we're conscious and unconscious of, and all of that that we're conscious and unconscious of, and all of that, and so when we go meet up for a clinic, I'm really what I'm drawn to is to have the work come from the deepest place of love and connection that it can. It's really what has me come alive in my own life working with horses, and it's what has me come equally alive when I'm working with people, and what it's what has me come equally alive when I'm working with people in their horses. When I see people connecting in a deep way with their horse, I feel like that is just as much of a gift to me and everybody else present you know to be a part of. And so, with that said, I find it takes a couple days. It takes a couple days to relax, to not only let your own kind of stress down and your own guard down and get comfortable somewhere, but to let the rest of the world ease away as much as we're trying to relax in our own lives. There's a million things that can really pull us every which way for sure in this in this world. And so, when you, when you go somewhere and you have nothing to do for four days but be with your horse and be with and be with other people who are along the same lines and what their journey is, and all of that, it is one of the greatest gifts that you can give yourself and your horse just by. I always tell people when they get there I say, well, the hard work is done, you've got here, and then usually it can be, it can go any which way, but I usually find that third day, that third day is where horses and humans are just so relaxed with each other and so at peace, and a lot opens up on that day, a lot of really neat and fun things.

Barbara O’Brien: 29:24
That is so cool,so they're not saying anymore I'm fine, they're honest, they're honest, yeah, they're being honest with themselves.

Chris Lombard: 29:32
With the idea that there's no difference between any honest answer that you give. A friend of mine once said he said yes and no. We tend to think yes is a better answer than no. He goes, but really, they both hold equal power. Yes, is no to something else and no is yes to something else, and they both hold equal power. They're both just the truth. They're both just the truth and it's what we don't want to know. And so, if we're not attached to any story about how something has to be, if we've truly let go of the who, what, why, when, where, how and we just want to be in truth with another and we just want to be connected with another. That leaves open every door, every possibility and connection almost can't not happen. You've put yourself in the moment. If you've let go of the past and the ways that it can direct us, both consciously and subconsciously, and how our mind can be kind of stuck in the past, wishing it had gone a different way, which means that we think the present moment should be different than it is in some way. If we can let go of that and if we can let go of the future, the anxieties and worries of the future, hoping that there's some future moment that we think is going to be better than the present moment, we’ll see those feelings in a human. Horses don't know what to do with those. All they know is that there's like two of us.

Barbara O’Brien: 31:00
Yeah, we're not congruent.

Chris Lombard: 31:02

We're not fully present.

Barbara O’Brien: 31:03

Yeah, we're not matching,

Chris Lombard: 31:04

And so they're automatically kind of ill at ease around us and that leads to spooking, that leads to disagreeing and other challenges and just not being safe and feeling at peace in our presence for a lot of horses, unless they've learned to really be able to fill in in beautiful ways, like the horses of Willow Wind can, as the different people come through there with a lot of energy and emotion. Those horses have learned to hold space and stay steady and fill in and to share space with those energies, but not take on those energies, which means those, those horses are worth their weight in gold as much as any other horse in the world, no matter what.

Barbara O’Brien: 31:38

Absolutely.

Chris Lombard: 31:39
And so at the clinics, when we can get ourselves to that place, a lot of the work is really. There's some clinics where you know if we work for you know, say, if we're there from 9 in the morning until, say, 5 or 6 at night. There's sometimes we're with the horses just a couple hours because we're sitting in circle and doing other exercises, where it's getting ourselves in the right place, and then when we go to the horses, it's just it's there, they're ready to meet us there, and all of that. So, I find getting ourselves in the present, feeling ourselves mentally, our thoughts, knowing our thoughts and knowing ways of thinking, and knowing that we can guide our thoughts, that our thoughts don't run us, but our thoughts are our choice. And also knowing our bodies, knowing how to feel, where we are in our relaxation or stress, knowing where to feel, where we are in our energy and what it's saying, both in what our body's speaking to us and also how our body's speaking to the world around us, both human and horse and our soul through our heart, your soul, being able to feel. Feel that part of us that is neither mind or body that you mentioned before, that feels timeless, feels eternal, doesn't feel either young or old, feels like it can be everywhere at once and feels like it may not know every secret of the universe yet, but, boy, it has a feel for them. You know that part of us there. I find if we can get in touch with those inside us first, that that opens every door and being able to know it and see it and understand it and communicate within it with another. So, yeah, that's what I find we focus on in the clinics.

Barbara O’Brien: 33:24
Wow, you must come to Wisconsin. We've got to work this out.

Chris Lombard: 33:27
I'd love to. Yeah, I would love to.

Barbara O’Brien: 33:30
I really want to spend. That would be the coolest thing, because, of course, naturally when you speak this way you think about how you can relate with an old personal experience, and this is about you. But I want to just quickly go how I understand what you're saying, because I was injured a couple years ago by a mare that we had taken in an Arabian, and I love Arabians I have Morgans now, but I love Arabians, and I thought I knew what was going on with attunement and horsemanship and the new way of doing things. But I did not have patience, and I was not listening, and the mayor clearly told me no. When I was sitting on her bareback with a halter and I asked her to move forward, she clearly with her body language, said no, and I hadn't been on a horse that ever bucked really. So, I didn't know what that warning was. When she kind of hunched her shoulders and said no. Looking back, I think it was pain in her back that was causing this, but she'd had some hard times before us and um, you know who knows, but I didn't have the patience to to have her feel safe. You know all those things that I know now. Anyway, she bucked really hard and, um, being bareback and not the best rider, of course we all try, but not the best I went flying off and I broke my pelvis in three spots and, um, you know, got to the house, got helped out of that eventually, but it really shook me up as my, uh, as a horse person, I'd never been seriously injured on any of my horses. You know, on my heart horses you could ride bareback everywhere and do stuff. And you just had that, like you're 14 years old and you can do everything, no fear at all, really, on my own horses it was the first time I ever got hurt. And then, um, working through that injury I'm fine now but working through that injury, being self-employed, um, you just kept working on your crutches and just did it. There was no time off, and so much shame. Like, oh, I can't believe I didn't listen to the horse. You know I really messed up on understanding this new way of being around horses. I was never mean or horrible, but I certainly was following. You know, it took a while to get from. Well, he's got to respect me, which I never felt comfortable with. Like some of us just knew that that wasn't the right path. So then we just kind of like nothing and the horse had no direction and no reason to feel safe around us, cause we didn't. But long story short, some new horses. I have three Morgans that came from the range in Montana, so not handled a lot, not mishandled necessarily, but not handled a lot. And one came, two yearlings and then a three-year-old. And the three-year-old was really defensive around her back end and very fearful of people and took a long time for her to come around where the patients came in, and so when she did it was really gratifying. But even until just very recently I carry this fear of the old injury of the other horse, and I project it onto the new horse, who hasn't done anything since we've been connected and more in tune and she realizes I'm not going to hurt her. Like she hasn't done anything to make me think she's going to hurt me. And if she did move defensively, I know enough to get out of the way and let her have her space and slow down, go back. And I know that now. But in the meanwhile, when I'm with her, you know, I'm still like that. And so, my good good trainer who helps me, named Tiffany Stauffer, who I did a podcast with, she said you're projecting all that onto the horse and she has no idea why. She has no understanding of what that is coming from. She's like why are you afraid of me? If you're afraid, maybe I should be afraid. What are we afraid of? So, I think it would take me a lot and still working through it. But to have four days to like not to say I'm fine, to be honest, and say I'm a little scared of you, how are we going to work through that? You know.

Chris Lombard: 37:09
Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 37:10
Wow, to have that guidance, Chris, boy, I mean, how do we, how do we get in touch with where we can learn that from you, because that would be phenomenal.

Chris Lombard: 37:20
I really enjoyed listening to you speak there, Barbara. You spoke so well about what so many people go through and particularly when you brought up shame, I thought, oh, thank you for going there and having that bravery to speak about your own journey in that way, and I just feel what I feel right off is just how we're all in this together. We are all in this together at all levels, whether you're a beginner or whether you are a horse professional with 50 years’ experience. We're all in this together, for whatever we're doing with a horse, there's something within our hearts that is drawing us there. I I don't know anybody. I don't know anybody I've met who has been drawn to horses and said, yes, I'm drawn to having this experience that will challenge me mentally, emotionally and physically, and I could possibly get physically hurt in really bad ways and also challenge me financially very, very much, as well as time wise, and have all of my inner fears come out, both mental and emotional and physical. I've not met one person who said that, but that is what we get. And we're all in this together and we're all going to deal with it in ways where we dive headfirst into it, in ways we shouldn't run away from it, in ways we probably shouldn't ignore it in ways we shouldn't be tremendously hard on ourselves in ways we probably shouldn't that are healthy, and also be tremendously hard on the horse in ways that aren't healthy either. So it's going to bring up all our stuff, like in any other relationship, very, very much, and the the self-preservation instinct you know how we're wired for our own safety is to remember the things that hurt us in all of these ways, and then all the situation has to do is mirror that in some way, and this self-preservation instinct of ours is going to very innocently start to prepare us. We're going to go into that sympathetic, nervous system of fight or flight in preparation for it, and we, our bodies, will betray us. We might be telling the horse easy, now, it's okay, easy, while we're staring them in the eye, not blinking with ourselves, just taller for some. All of a sudden, a leaf has to drop 10 feet from us, and we jump.

Barbara O’Brien: 39:42
Yeah, yeah, no there's a transformation. You're exactly right about the whole, how our bodies are, our our brain is telling us one thing, or trying to tell the horse one thing and the body's telling another. Because when Tiffany works with Rita, this mare, and Tiffany, who is just so in tune and so good with horses, the mare goes, oh, thank goodness. Okay, yes, yes, you can pick up all four of my feet. Yes, I will, we'll work with the farrier. Yes, everything is okay. You know, just like there's a transformation. And as an animal actor trainer, I see the same thing with dogs, because I can go to set and work with someone's dog and it might be nicely trained and having a lot of fun, but the owner brings so much anxiety because, oh, my dog's going to have to perform and I'm nervous. It's like, okay, I'm going to work with Trigger here and I need you to go over there and take a deep breath and I do this. I mean I know what's going on with the dog and the owner, and the dog is fine. I mean it's great. But recognizing it in myself is really hard, you know, because it's like Tiffany can do the same thing for the horse that I can do for somebody else's dog, because we're coming at it from a completely different place and she's completely honest about who she is. At the moment the horse goes great, you know. Same thing with the dog and me. I know he's going to be great. We're going to have fun gaming. If he doesn't like the game, we're not going to play. No harm done; you know. So, but why can't you know so that you know? That's why you almost get like you said. The shame comes on like why can't I transfer that? You know, why can't a person transfer that? I don't mean to like ask all these questions about me personally, because now it feels like I don't want to talk too much about me. This is about the real author, but I am. I feel like I wish we had hours, and we don't. Maybe we'll have to do another podcast because, Chris, you, you're just like really hitting it home for me and, I'm sure, so many of my listeners.

Chris Lombard: 41:29
Thanks, Barbara. I feel it as well as far as this is a topic for sure that feels like it could use a lot of words to get to something that can be pretty complex and pretty hard maybe the hardest thing to go through as a horse person, because we we feel love for these horses. We feel love for these horses, and we can also develop a fear of them at the same time, and that can create so much chaos inside of us that what we love is also what's scaring us, and I find.

Barbara O’Brien: 42:01

That is so profound. Yeah, yeah.  

Chris Lombard: 42:03

And and there's a reason why I feel like the hardest horses are the ones closest to us the hardest horses are our own, because we're invested emotionally in them in ways that we can't help but very much care about the relationship, and we can't help but have somewhat of a story attached about the relationship and what we'd like it to be and where we'd like it to go. To be in the moment, to be truly in the moment, as we all talk about, means that you're not attached to any sort of future at all, and so when we're in relationship, we can't help it. We get attached to a future, we want it to go a certain way or something and we want to do right by the horse. And so, I find that when a fear develops, I have to embrace it, I have to honor it. There's opportunity there, somehow. I cannot deny it. And I have to really work on my own personal intuition. It's one of the hardest things, I think, to see the way clearly for yourself. That's why so many of us go to helpers, and when your friend comes over and helps with your horse, it's probably because she's not as attached to the future she can be in that moment. She's probably been around a lot of horses and in certain situations before, there were things in my life. I remember when I first rode a bolting horse. When a horse bolted me for the first time a true bolting, I thought I might have been ruined with horses forever for riding. It was one of the scariest things that I'd ever had, and it happened again later that that year, in a short time afterward, and I thought, oh my God, what am I missing? What am I not seeing? I'd probably worked with 800,000 horses maybe more by that time, like intimately, like really intimately, with those horses and I'm like but what am I missing? I didn't see these two bolts coming. It was the most uncomfortable thing, but when I finally just let go, took a breath, slowed down, found help in the ways I needed to, listened to my intuition, because intuition will sometimes say this is happening because you're supposed to be going down a different road. And sometimes intuition will say this is happening and you need to embrace it and keep walking forward with it. And we can't know what that answer is going to be and it's different for each of us. Nobody will know our journeys better than us until we're able to just really get connected to our intuition and then trust it, like we talked earlier, to trust life, to trust that it happened, to not wish that it didn't happen, because at that moment then, all of a sudden, all of a sudden every door becomes clear, what's in front of you becomes clear. Then so stepping forward into it if you're finding help, as well as going back, going back to where you do feel comfortable again, even if that's looking at the horse from the other side of the fence. There's a fairness to life that the more you work through something, the more that you are taken through it. The more you learn that challenge, the more you understand it. And then the more you understand it. You see it from two angles. You see it from a way before it ever happens, so that you can go a different way before something happens, you can guide it a different way. But then you also understand it so that if it does happen, you know what to do. That's where true confidence comes from with horses is that you know what to do so that something doesn't happen, but then you also know what to do if something should happen. That's when I find that people can take the deepest breaths around their horses and work through what they are going through. As far as that challenge and there's no end to how many baby steps we can break things down into and what we really have to let go of is that getting through it is the big reward, is the big joy, is the big place we're trying to get to we have to go back to just standing and sitting and moving a tiny bit through your fear with the horse together in that moment, to where you both breathe, you both look at each other, you both connect, you both become two halves of a whole, wanting the same thing, and that's the end in itself. Right then, right there, with no place, you got to get to Let the future come to you. Let the future come to you. Let the future come to you, and you'll find that these things that have happened with our horses, they bring us closer together. They bring us closer together, and where that leads to, though, oh, who knows, who knows? Sometimes the most courageous thing is saying maybe this horse would be safer in somebody else's care. That is just as courageous as saying I think me and this horse have to work through this together. And so long as the underlying theme is that the horse's care will always stay the same or get better, then I find it's like any other relationship out there in the world. We get together with somebody, and we think, oh, this could be forever, but sometimes it's just for a little while. And as long as, like I said, as long as we have everybody's best interests at heart beyond anything we hope to accomplish in our relationships, then I find it can always go to a place that brings us higher, always for us and the horse.

Barbara O’Brien: 47:22
Well, people and animals, especially animals because of their shorter lifespans, uh, come into our life for um a season. They're there for seasons. People and animals are there for seasons and they come, and they go and, um, the best thing from those seasons if, even if you're sad that say you know you lose your dog, you lose your horse, you know whatever, um, they were there for that season, and you learned something. You learned something, you grew from it. That's the best way to look. Even painful things they are seasons, and you learn. So, I learned from that horse, and I learned that I had to start from scratch and really listen and understand what it meant to be quiet and peaceful. And with my other horses I have seven horses. The other six I have no angst about at all and they know it and we're like cool, even the youngsters who are three-year-olds. Now it's like great. I'm with you. Rita's here for a reason. This is the three or she's five. Now I'm learning something. I'm learning something from Rita, and I just want to learn more. And the minute I get around her and I say to myself it is what it is, and I just want to learn more. And the minute I get around her and I say to myself it is what it is, and I'm not going to be afraid of you, you're doing nothing, you know, to like consciously, think about that, you know, the more she goes like, well, what took you so long? I'm just standing here, you know, I mean, and then when she we go for a walk, and if she goes up, I just go quieter, just go quieter. You know it's like with a child. The child gets amped up and upset and angry and scared, whatever the child is feeling, cause every action is, every action is a sign of emotion, every movement is emotion. Um, you, you know, if you get bigger and louder and yell at the child or scare them or like just fall apart, like you don't stay regulated for the child, everything is going to fall apart. Right, but if you can go to that place of calmness, quietness, I mean you try a two-year-old, you know, which is not much different than a 15-year-old, when you look at what they're trying to express. They need to be independent, but they're still hanging on, boy, that patience, that quietness, that I'm not going to let my you know reaction overshadow what they're feeling at the moment. I need to be present for them and that's hard, I mean. I have four sons and grandchildren and you know, and we've worked with children, young women that have come and stayed with us, that have had terrible trauma and adverse childhood you know, experiences the same thing with horses, experiences the same thing with horses. Instead of going, what's wrong with you when you look at the horse you have to. You can say what happened to you, but also turn that back. Turn that back on yourself Instead of saying what's wrong with me? Why am I afraid? Why am I a problem? You know you can go like, okay, this is what happened and now I can let it go or I can work through it, or I learned something. And it seems to me that things happen to you and the horse has helped you learn something, and now you're turning that around and helping others which is such a great thing on their journeys to get to a place of being present and being thoughtful and being there. I mean, how wonderful is that, Chris? We're grateful.

Chris Lombard: 50:23
Yeah, it never ends. As far as this journey of learning and all of that, and I've uh, I've learned to be very kind and gentle with myself. I used to be, I used to feel, if we looked at, like you know, six years ago or so, I'd say I, I'd feel like, okay, I really feel very in tune with horses and people and this work and the clinics and everything else. And then and then I would go through my own learning phase. Something would happen, and I would you, but it always had the same sort of um feel to it. It always felt like rushing, it always felt like I was rushing, I was pushing, and then I would you know I'd be driving away from the person and their horse that I was visiting that day, or it'd be the end of the day at the clinic, and I'd be like that didn't feel too good. You know that didn't feel and it would be very uncomfortable in me because I felt like I had to be this steady, strong, always, always connected, always in the flow, and it came from a very innocent place. It came from a very innocent place of wanting to be good for everybody and good for all horses, but it was also attached to an insecure place about finding something and self-worth a long time ago in this work with horses. Finding something that when you find something, that people seem to go hey, you're good at that. Um, I think it's impossible not to attach some self-worth and self-meaning to that, and you want to keep that. You want to, you want to feel like you're enough. You want to feel like you're like, you want to. At the end of the day, as deep as it goes, you want to feel like you're loved and it's that part of us. That's looking for our wholeness outside of ourselves, love outside of ourselves, which we'll be running in circles doing that and we'll be putting a lot of that on the horses in not healthy ways, trying to have them live and do and be in a certain way that fills in for us and makes us feel good and feels like we're good with horses and good in life in all ways. And then when they're not doing it, then we'll get pretty frustrated pretty quickly. We'll blame them. So that inner work it's really the greatest work and I believe it is the biggest work as far as having an effect on our horses and how we are around them, how we care for them and how we work with them is our own inner work towards finding our own wholeness within our own love, within our love for ourselves.

Barbara O’Brien: 52:54
Like you said, love and connection. For sure what you said.

Chris Lombard: 52:57
Love and connection for ourselves from within that great wellspring of love and connection within where we feel I am loved, I am safe, and I am never alone. You have an individual feel that and then have them walk up to a horse. Oh, we're looking at a being of you know 60 million years or so of evolution, where energy and presence and body language is their number one way of reading a being, as the being's walking up to them. And now we're talking about a universal language that transcends species here.

Barbara O’Brien: :53:33
Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's a reason we don't ride rhinoceroses. There's a reason the horse, the dog, the cat, the domestic animals choose. If they choose, at least it seems they can. So, yes, absolutely, and I think it does go back, and I think it's in our DNA to want to be with animals and to be with nature. I think it's very human, I think we all have, whether we say we like animals or not. I think there's an animal shaped hole in all of us in some level, you know, because, given the opportunity, how could someone not love a cat? I, you know, cats are the, you know. Okay, we could go on and on cats, chickens, cattle, all of it, you know dogs. I mean my whole life is animals, it's animal centric. How lucky and blessed I am to have that as my living. To train animal actors to, you know, be an animal photographer, to do this, talk to amazing people like you. So, I, everyone, should just go get a cat or a dog or, you know, go connect, go get out their horse, whatever it takes. That's why we have therapy animals, you know, I mean because we all feel good around them, you know. So, yeah, my husband was just talking I'm sorry, Chris, my husband was just talking the other day that we're talking about somebody who was at the end of life and how they were in hospice, you know, and it was sad. And we were talking about someone, and he said, well, if I'm ever faced with that, or you know, or I have time where I'm dying slowly, he said, just surround me with cats, let me just have all my cats. I just cause we have a lot of cats and he just like that gives him so much comfort and it's like, just, you know, whatever you need to do, make sure that I have, you know, seven, eight, 10, however many cats want to sit with me there. That's what I love, all my family, but you make sure there's cats, and I think that's great.

Chris Lombard: 55:15
So absolutely yeah. I think animals embody a loving presence for the wholeness of the moment, the wholeness of life in the moment. You know there's there's many differences between us with animals. The bodies are certainly different and as much as we can learn about those differences, the better off. We are minds, the minds are different in their capability and all of that but. I don't see that as any different, as how humans are different mind to mind. Humans are different in their mental capability as well. And the word is. The word is only different, but it doesn't mean better or worse and that's where I think a lot of us humans, you know, are mistaken is we tend to feel like we're above animals in some way, and I find that where we, you know, we talk about those great things that unify us, like life and death, and when the animals that I've been around that have passed on, they have a great acceptance of it, they seem to have a great knowing that it's just a transition, that nothing's wrong, nothing's bad. And, yes, it might be scary. The body is going to think it's scary, certainly enough, the body has reactions in trying to stay alive during those times. But that soulful part of animals we were talking about, that seems to be very much at peace with this journey, whether it's a yearlong or 10 years or 100. And uh, and no matter what's happened within the journey, they almost have this great I don't want to say forgiveness of life, but a a great knowing of life is a road of ups and downs and challenges a lot of unknown, and so when humans are around animals, there's a reason why we go to them for hard times and certainly there's a reason why we go to them during times where people feel like they're close to passing and they embody, even if we're not aware of it mentally, we feel something energetically, we feel something soulfully, where the animal's embodying a feeling of it's okay, it's going to be all right, and that's often just enough. It doesn't have to be explained beyond that.

Barbara O’Brien: 57:20
No, that's wonderful. Well, as I said, we could just talk a long time. There's so much that we want to learn that you can share with us. But we're to the last part of the show where we talk about the questions. Tim Ferris’s has a book called, Tribe of Mentors and he has these 20 questions that he asked his people in the book and his show, and we're stealing totally the idea. So, we sent 20 of the questions that Tim Ferris asked people and had you pick out five of them, and they're just a great way to wrap up the show and let people get to know you on another level. And then the last thing we'll do is, of course, talk about how people can get in touch with you, and you know things like that, All right. So, the first question that you picked was what is the most valuable thing that you put your time into that has changed the course of your life?

Chris Lombard: 58:10
Yes, I remember picking that one. I was like well, I already know my answer for that, and we and we talked about it a little bit earlier it's the um, the wholeness within, the wholeness within. I believe a lot of our journey in this world is to experience our life as whole, ourselves as whole, from the inside out, where we have this great, I call it the wellspring of love from within, the never-ending wellspring of love from within. And what comes right along with that is just a feeling of safety as we go on our journey and a feeling of never, ever being alone. Journey and a feeling of never, ever being alone. And the reason why that has been the most important thing for me is because it's like a practice. As far as the physical part of this world, everything is a practice. I don't care how many times I've done a hindquarter yield with a horse, I still feel like I'm practicing it, even though I've probably done it 20,000 times.

Barbara O’Brien: 59:08
Sure.

Chris Lombard: 59:09
Yeah. And I'm still missing them all the time, like, oh, I could have moved this way a little bit more, could have asked a little less or a little more. All these different things so it's a constant practice physically in this world, but if I can find that feeling within me that I spoke about as I go to be around a horse, care for a horse or work with a horse wherever it goes, I find is just beautiful right from the start, yeah, that's made a big difference for me.

Barbara O’Brien: 59:36
That's great. I understand what inspires and motivates you to do what you do and what is your true purpose in the world?

Chris Lombard: 59:44
You spoke earlier about those things that are kind of born into us. You know, when we come into this world and I have a very strong drawing to be out there with horses and with people and to be fostering opportunity for seeing and understanding and connection between the two of them, and when I, when I'm out there with people and horses, there's an evenness to it. I feel like we're all there evenly together. I do not feel like I'm leading. I feel like we're all leading together and we're all learning together and I'm simply there for safety and organization and to offer guidance when needed, based on the fact of what's come before. All the horses, all the people, all the different adventures and journeys that I've been on and all of that that I can maybe offer assistance if asked. But there's something that I feel during that time and working with people and horses that fills me up just as great as anything that they might be getting filled up with as well the work that they're doing, and I can tell I can't get away from that. It feels like it's born into me.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:01:03
I understand.

Chris Lombard: 1:01:04
Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:01:05
All right. What is your relationship with fear?

Chris Lombard: 1:01:09
Oh, it's a guide, it's a locator, it's not a bad thing. Fear gets such a bad rap. It's so innocent. Even the fears that we've kind of made up mentally in our heads. It's still showing us that we're capable of doing. So, it’s kind of highlighting all these areas that are getting in the way. Of us is being able to take those deep breaths and relax and look at ourselves and, like I said, be gentle and understanding of ourselves, realize that this is a practice. There's no perfection to life and that we don't have to compare ourselves to anybody else or to who we think we should be or anything else, and that our thinking can sometimes be our own worst enemy. This is what fear shows us. It's like a little beacon light. It's like a little lighthouse. It just makes me aware of something that is getting in the way of myself, whether that be my own mind, or whether that be something real, whether that be, an inner sense that yes, Chris, there is a bunch of turkeys in the grass over there and they're about to jump up. Oh, thank you here, thank you awareness right there, I think I'll. I'll stop the horse, get down and we'll maybe walk towards them slowly or maybe even turn around and not disturb them. I have to see what my intuition says.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:02:33

Yeah, there's a reason we run from tigers, you know, or don't mess with tigers.

Chris Lombard: 1:02:37

Exactly.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:02:38
What did you want to be as a child, and how close did you get to that dream?

Chris Lombard: 1:02:41
Oh, I forgot, I picked that one.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:02:46

I'm very curious, because you didn't know horses until later, so you know.

Chris Lombard: 1:02:49
Exactly when I picked these, I felt like I didn't pick them because I already had the answer. They're the ones that I felt that I was drawn to, and all that, but this one, I feel like I got nothing right off. Yeah, let's see where this goes. I would say, as I had a child, there's two passions in my life, two passions that I can't get away from, and they are tied to my heart very closely, and one is being around and working with horses and people, and the other one is writing writing stories. Non-fiction poetry even writing. You know social media that's a great outlet for me to speak my heart and social media. So, I remember, though. I remember when I was young sitting on the bed. I don't know how old I was, but I'm sitting on the bed with my mom, and she didn't quite know what I was talking about. She was like what are you talking about? And I said, I said I don't know, mom, I feel I have to be out there doing something with people, and then I and I have to tell about it.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:03:53
I have to do something and tell about it.

Chris Lombard: 1:04:03
It's like eight-year-old kid it's talking. She's like what? I'm like, yeah, I have to be out there. And I was an animal lover, big-time animal lover. Everybody knew that and I was like I'm supposed to be out there doing something, mom, and then I gotta tell about she's like huh, you know, this would have been like in the early 80s or whatever.
 And I don't know if she was thinking, okay, he's just a kid, or I don't know, we've never talked about this or whatever. I don't know she'd even remember it. But what I feel in my heart, what was there, was the feeling of I'm supposed to be out there, you know, just helping horses, helping people and horses as best I can. And then the telling about it is the writing about it, because that is just as strong in me as to sit down afterward and sort of come to peace with it through writing and also help myself to understand it as far as the learnings that I can have from it, not only about myself but all of life. So I think that's what I would answer for that one.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:04:59

 That's a good answer. And then the last one do you have a favorite animal companion?

Chris Lombard: 1:05:06
Oh, I don't know why I picked this one. I picked this one because I said I'm going to get to talk about Rocky and Matea.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:05:15
We'd like that.

Chris Lombard: 1:05:18
Rocky, I have a hard time saying used to be or was. Rocky was a horse that I was very connected to. He passed away this past late March. He was 21 years old and Matea, a dog I was very connected to, passed away at 13 years old a year ago, and those were my deepest most connected animal companions so far in this world, and not to judge depth, not to compare, you know when I say deepest, but that's just the. And there's a horse in my life now named Tally, and I feel the same sort of thing that I felt with Rocky, that same sort of connection, and it will be different, but also, I believe it will feel the same in many ways. But not to speak about this, one was deeper or that deeper or more deeper in that way. I don't think that's. I think there's just these different relationships we have with animals that take us, take us pretty far. And Matea felt like she was walking beside me through it all, experiencing it all with me, like I don't know, Chris, what's this? I don't know, let's go. Matea felt like my adventure buddy, tied right to my hip through anything. She wouldn't let me go through anything alone, no matter what it was, and probably the deepest journeys we experienced together were what I went through emotionally in the last 13 years, and she would not let me go through that alone. Rocky, I always describe, Rocky to me. He felt like he had one hoof in this world and one hoof in the other. He was right there with me through all these journeys. But boy was there a big part of him that felt like he understood it all and knew where it was all going and knew why things were happening. He felt like my greatest teacher. At the same time, he was my greatest friend, he felt like while I was teaching him. I knew him since he was a foal and he went through so many incarnations of me in 21 years, so many times where I was like, ooh Rocky, I learned this new thing.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:07:22
Let's try it, Okay, Chris, all right.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:07:25

So forgiving.

Chris Lombard: 1:07:26
So forgiving and so many incarnations of me, emotionally as well. You know like I'm so tied to those guys that whatever I went through in life, you know personally, I couldn't help but have that be present when I was working and doing things with them, and no matter how many changes I went through there as well, he was always right there with me, always right there with me and deeper for it, deeper for it. And the work that we did, whether it was alone, him and I, or whether it was out there at clinics, or whether it was a demonstrations or expos or horse shows or performances or whatever place, in all of that that's beyond mind and body in his presence and in his choice to, to be there and to follow wherever it may lead. Even if he did not know where I was leading or what was around that next corner, even if I didn't know, he still trusted in it to come, to come full circle here, to come full circle for this hour that we've been here, Barbara, Rocky trusted life with me. Rocky trusted life with me and that was in every one of his steps that he took with me.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:08:40
Yes, I understand, and I agree All horse people and dog people, certainly anyone who's loved an animal can relate to what you're saying and understand it. I just I hadn't ridden for four years after I lost my hard horse because I had young horses, or our rescue mares were rideable. So they're just here and we love them. And then recently someone gave me the opportunity to pick up this gelding, this 18 year old Morgan gelding, who is is rideable and we're building our relationship now. I've only had him a few months, but I finally rode him around the farm bareback because the saddle wasn't going to be the right fit and I thought I'll just ride you bareback. And that was a trust building for both of us because, you know, I didn't want to get hurt, be scared. So that was all fine and I wrote about it on Facebook. I said I finally rode. You know, Teddy, he's such a lovely boy and he was very giving, very understanding, and I mentioned how I, your hard horse, was right there with you and that just I was like, yeah, probably, you know, I feel that was possible. He was just, he was just right there with me. Like you, this is going to be okay. You can. You can love this horse Like you loved me. You know, permission it was, uh, it was really a wonderful thing that person said because, uh, I feel they never really go away when someone you love, a human being, dies. Do they really go away? No, I mean, if you're open, they're with you. As long as you're open, they're with you. They don't go away. It's eternal, and I feel our animal souls can be that way too. And it was just so gratifying to visualize that Finn, this Morgan Gilding, very similar to what Teddy is now, was with me. That really touched my heart. Rocky's with you. You know that.

Chris Lombard: 1:10:19
Well said, yeah, thanks for that, Barbara.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:10:24
That's a good place to. I don't feel like crying too, because now I feel sad for you and Rocky. I get it so deeply and your dog, of course. Of course, your dog too.

Chris Lombard: 1:10:32

It's a beautiful sadness. Thanks for that too.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:10:34
Yeah, all right. So, uh, how? What's the? We're going to, of course, list everything, all the links you gave us and things in the show notes, but how do people find you if they want to work with you? Um, certainly, your books are, um online. We can have links to those. I recommend everyone reading them. Just reading the synopsis on the description, I was like, oh, oh, I, cause we just arranged this, so I haven't got your book yet, but I'm going to get your books because I'm like I want to know what happened, why, at 26, and then, how did you get there? And all those things you talk about in your, in your books. Um, you know, it should be a movie. As far as I'm concerned, somebody better pick it up, uh, but how? Uh, what's the best way to start? Uh, I found you on Facebook, um, and follow you there, certainly, but what's what's the best way for people to if they want to reach out and learn more about you?

Chris Lombard: 1:11:19
Oh, the best way would be the website, probably, which is chrislombard.com, and that has links on there to both the Instagram and Facebook pages, which I do a lot of writing because, like I said, I love it. I love writing about horses and all the adventures we all take with them, so I do a lot of social media writing. And then the books yep, they're available if you just kind of Google them out there there's Land of the Horses, which is about the two years that I spent out West. The Horses and Our Stars, which is more about the journey within, more about the soulful, heartfelt journey and the adventures there that we have with horses.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:11:59
Well, that's great, that's great. Oh, wow, I'm just, I want to go hug my horses right now I just want to go out there and talk to them and go. I'm going to be present and I'm going to be quiet and I'm going to be still and just not look at my phone, not even bring it out there. You know, just right.

Chris Lombard: 1:12:11
Right.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:12:15
That's how talking to you has made me feel today and I'm grateful for that. Thank you, Chris, for for coming on the podcast. We really appreciate you sharing a really important message in this changing world of horses.

Chris Lombard: 1:12:24
Barbara, I just had a blast here and I can't thank you enough for creating this place where people can go and talk and also feel heard and seen and known just by listening to this podcast and everything the people that you've had on and what they're sharing. Like we talked earlier, I love listening to podcasts while I'm driving and while I'm working around the house and all of that and putting on a podcast such as yours and everything I'm going to feel like all right. I can really understand what they're talking about right now, I really feel like I'm a part of something, so you're creating a place of community here through this, and this is that's very important.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:13:01
Well, thank you, that was my goal. I wanted to just talk to people that can spread the word because it's happening in the dog world. It's getting better for dogs all the time Horses it's a little slower catching on, and the more we can get it out there that this is possible, that it doesn't have to be the way it was. It's possible and there's no shame in what happened before. Move forward. You know you might not have always had the best methods, but you're different now and that's going to be better for your horse and we all, as you know, horse people feel that. So, move on, move with them, go with them. It's wonderful. Thank you again, Chris.

Chris Lombard: 1:13:36
Thank you so much, Barbara.

(Music): 1:13:47