Jessica Gonzales - Every Horse and Every Person Deserves a Second Chance S3 E25

Jessica Gonzalez Podcast Transcript

Intro Music: 0:01

Barbara O'Brien: 0:14

Hi, I’m Barbara O’Brien. I’m an animal trainer and photographer. And I’d like to welcome you to The Empathetic Trainer.

Music: 0:20

Barbara O'Brien: 0:26

Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien and you're listening to the Empathetic Trainer podcast. Today's guest is Jessica Gonzalez. She's a lifetime horse rescuer and author of Equine Empowerment: A Guide to Positive Reinforcement Training. She runs Empowered Equines Rescue and Empowered Equestrians educational program. Welcome to the podcast, Jessica.

Jessica Gonzalez: 0:46

Hi, thanks for having me.

Barbara O'Brien: 0:48

So, those of you who watching us on YouTube, there's a cat that is like really stealing the show. So, before we even get started, we better introduce the cat.

Jessica Gonzalez: 0:55

This is Night Fury. He's named after the dragon from How to Train Your Dragon, and he's very, very friendly.

Barbara O'Brien: 01:01

He looks friendly.

Jessica Gonzalez: 1:02

A little too friendly.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:04

Oh, that's no harm in that. We like that. now we all know his name. So, everyone, you don't have to worry about this sweet cat coming in and out. Well, I found you on Facebook, which is where I find a lot of my horse people. you're doing a lot of interesting stuff. And now that I see you face to face, I'm like, wow, you're young, which is great. So, why don't you just give us a little introduction about like how you even got started with animals? I mean, did you always have horses? Were you an animal? Kinda like your little backstory first. Let's learn about you a little bit.

Jessica Gonzalez: 01:33

Yeah. So, I grew up loving animals, but I never had any. I lived in like the deep city and I found I was pretty young when I found my obsession with animals and horses in particular. So, I found a rescue to volunteer at that was within driving distance and I volunteered there every weekend. And as I grew up, every time I started looking for jobs or doing anything in my life, it just kept circling back to animals. So, when I got my own house and my own horse, the owner of the rescue that I grew up at got sick and she passed away.

Barbara O’Brien: 2:18

Oh, sorry.

Jessica Gonzalez: 2:19

And a few of her horses had to come live with me. And at that point we just said, okay, this is what we're doing and started our own rescue. And I was kind of one of those lost kids who had trouble making friends and didn't really get along with humans. And the rescue is kind of like a light in my life. So, I wanted to make sure that my rescue provided that for kids too. I wanted to make sure we had an active kids’ program for really anybody who wanted to spend time with animals and focus on the relationship aspect, not just the training or riding part of horses.

Barbara O'Brien: 03:02

Oh, for sure. That's wonderful. And for you to be able to do it now when you're young is also wonderful. So how old were you when you started going to the rescues on the weekends? We have similar stories, and so I really feel for you. Did your folks have to drive you? You know, like how old were you? And what did they think of your, you know, obsession at that point?

Jessica Gonzalez: 03:23

Yeah, they had to drive me about 45 minutes, and they would drop me off in the morning and pick me up at night because I wanted to be there as many hours as I could. And yeah, it was tricky. I was about nine when I started exploring horses and finding places to play with horses. But I was 13 when I found the rescue. And that's really where like that was where I felt I wanted to be because I could spend the whole day, loving on the horses and being with the horses and you know wasn't it I got to ride sometimes but not very often it was really more about spending time with them and building a relationship and that's really what I was looking for out of that situation.

Barbara O'Brien: 04:10

Sure, sure. So, you found early on that horses were healing for you, and they were a help for you as you were growing up, maybe not connecting as well with your peers, things like that. So many animal people have similar stories because animals don't judge, and they like us just the way we are. And, uh, so, it's pretty cool that you have kind of had this intuition already that. So, tell us how. So, let's start with the rescue. What kind? From what I understand, you're not only rescuing horses, which is great, and I've done that too through Forever Morgan's with Morgan horses and things like that. You are rescuing humans in a way. I mean, actually the animals are rescuing the humans, but you're making it possible. And what a gift. So maybe if you could tell us a little bit how did the young people or the people you're working with, the children, the young people, I don't know the age group, how did that come about? And how did you find suitable horses? Did the horses just, I find horses just know, but did, know, can you tell us a little bit about that?

Jessica Gonzalez: 05:18

So as soon as you move horses into a farm, kids start appearing.

Barbara O'Brien: 05:23

Hahaha!

Jessica Gonzalez: 05:26

We literally, we have this volunteer who she's been here for four years now. And I found her hiding in the bushes beside my barn and watching our Clydesdales in the yard. And she was just, you could see her just dreaming of like how amazing it would be to spend time with those horses. And I was just like, come on over, you can come groom them. And she's been a volunteer for four years.

Barbara O'Brien: 05:50

My gosh. Yeah.

Jessica Gonzalez: 05:51

So, I mean, it wasn't hard to find kids who needed animals. It is kind of tricky finding animals that are suitable for our kids because we don't take in animals suitable for our kids. We take in rescues who have major life issues. We have two blind horses. We have a neurological horse. We have one who came to us, well, we have several who came to us for aggression issues. So, it's like, how do I just throw a bunch of kids in with them? And we have, yeah, we have kids from six years old to 60 years old. So, we have all ages, but mostly it's the six to 15 range that is. You know, they're here every day and really obsessed and then they get jobs and have to be adults.

Barbara O'Brien: 06:46

Sure, sure. But what a wonderful gift you've given them, that relationship with the horse. I know for myself, you know, being awkward and, you know, just my personality being different. Horses, when I was able to finally start working for my riding lessons when I was 12, so I understand, I had a mentor, an older lady. It kept me out of trouble, out of depression. They still keep me out of depression. You know, I still have horses. And it was like all the way through high school, you know, all the way, even though I had a job and it's like, just kept with it and I'm still now, I eloped so I could have a horse when I was 19 and we're still, 43 years later, we're still married, we still have horses, so it worked out. But that gift that you give those young people to feel good about themselves and the lessons they learned. So, say you've got a horse that, can you give me like a story? Can you tell me about a particular horse and a particular child maybe? Like, how did that work out?

Jessica Gonzalez: 07:40

Oh man, I don't even know who to choose because they're all so special. There we have, let's see, we've got a neurological pony. He's a warm-blood pony cross.

Barbara O'Brien: 07:54

Okay, so neurological, just so we understand means.

Jessica Gonzalez: 07:55

Um, he... somewhere in his spine, the connections aren't being made down to the rest of his body. So, he's not... he's quite clumsy, he falls easily, he doesn't have great sensation in his hind limbs, and he's very frantic all the time, like, I-

Barbara O'Brien: 08:17

Well, yeah, because a horse's line of defense is to escape.

Jessica Gonzalez: 08:20

Absolutely.

Barbara O’Brien: 08:21

And if he feels he can't escape, naturally that would cause concern for him.

Jessica Gonzalez: 08:24

Yeah, and he's super sweet. He loves people. So, we rescued him when he was only two months old, but he and his mom were were bones. So, we think that being starved at such a developmental stage is probably why he's so neurological and why it hasn't changed throughout his life, because it's not changing with the development of his spine. He's 10 now. So, he's he's doing he's really stable in that he can live a good quality of life, but he'll never be able to be ridden because he's not, he can't like carry himself, let alone a rider. So, he's kind of stuck with us because I wouldn't trust sending him out into the world where somebody might think they could get away with riding him and then not.

Barbara O'Brien: 09:14

Yeah, someone gets hurt, horse gets hurt, yeah.

Jessica Gonzalez: 09:15

Exactly.

Barbara O’Brien: 09:17

And what's his name, this pony?

Jessica Gonzalez: 09:19

So, his name is Zephyr. And he is not a gentle breeze. He is a hurricane. And he, he's like, I always joke, he's like an ADHD four-year-old boy. He's just super busy. He's very intelligent. He understands spatial awareness better than any horse I've ever known. Like we play a game with him where we'll put a ball, throw it into his stall and he has to get it out his stall door and sometimes it'll get stuck behind something or like go in a weird path and he has to figure out how to get it out of stall door. And he's really good at that.

Barbara O'Brien: 09:58

Sure. And we're talking a good-sized ball.

Jessica Gonzalez: 10:00

Yeah, yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 10:01

Like a horse sized ball?

Jessica Gonzalez: 10:02

Like a jolly ball. Yeah, not like a tennis ball.

Barbara O’Brien: 10:05

So, my audience doesn't think it's like a little baseball. I'm just cause some of them aren't going to be horse people. Okay. Yeah. So, a good-sized ball, but he's got to manipulate it with his feet and his nose and his muzzle and like move it around. Right.

Jessica Gonzalez: 10:15

Yeah. And it's, fun because most of our horses, they can learn to push a ball and to kick a ball, but they don't really have that concept of how to maneuver the ball where they want it to go.

Barbara O’Brien: 10:26

Yeah, it’s pretty smart.

Jessica Gonzalez 10:28

Yeah, he really is. He's so, he's a very intelligent horse, but he's super hyper and really frantic and like he can't concentrate for more than a second. And we've got this 13-year-old girl who is exactly the same personality. And in some ways, you know, at first, I was like, these two should never work together because they are, you know, crazy and crazy, you know.

Barbara O'Brien: 10:53

Sure.

Jessica Gonzalez: 10:54

And they, they amp each other up totally. So there, there are a lot of days where we're like, okay, we're going to stop and we're going to breathe. And we actually taught Zephyr to take a deep breath on cue so that he would stop and breathe sometimes.

Barbara O’Brien: 11:08

Reset. Yeah.

Jessica Gonzalez: 11:09

Yeah, so it was actually a cool exercise for his they took the the situation. She's a sweet, sweet girl, but she's very hyper, very active. She does jujitsu. She does horses. She's just. On the go 100 miles an hour and she struggles with mental health issues. It's just hard to be a teenager in this world right now.

Barbara O'Brien: 11:33

It is. It's hard for every single one of them. Yep.

Jessica Gonzalez: 11:36

Yeah, and where she is so hyper and so active. I think that can be a lot for some kids. So, she has a hard time making friends and Zephyr is the perfect friend for her. And they, we kind of took it as a learning opportunity for both of them. You have to help Zephyr learn how to cope with his... anxiety, his stress, like learn his coping skills and in doing so she's learning her own coping skills.

Barbara O'Brien: 12:06

Yeah, you've empowered her to help something else, someone else, you know, and by helping someone else, it helps her, which builds confidence and the ability to regulate. So, they're helping each other regulate.

Jessica Gonzalez: 12:19

That's the goal and they do it really well. Sometimes they do work each other up instead of bringing each other back down. But sometimes we've also taken recently, they've been doing really well in their training. We always focus on like the core behaviors. You know, can you move your body parts away from me when I ask? Can you stop and stand still when I ask? Those safety things.

Barbara O'Brien: 12:45

Yes.

Jessica Gonzalez: 12:46

And they've just done so well with that. That recently I've been saying, let's embrace what you two have. You guys are the most exuberant, fun, active, playful people and horse, just have fun. Like, so long as we can bring ourselves back down to calm, why don't you go do the things that you can't do with the other horses because they're too quiet, too laid back, too resigned. So, it's... it’s become a really beautiful partnership because of that.

Barbara O'Brien: 13:17

Sounds wonderful. And it sounds wonderful. So that's a good lead in to talking about, there's my puppy. That's Bentley. To talk about positive reinforcement and force-free animal care and the way you work with them. Cuz as you know, I train animal actors and of course everything. It has to be very, very fun. I mean, because that's the animal's idea. We can't make a cat do anything unless he wants to.

Jessica Gonzalez: 13:45

That's for sure.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:46

So, I understand that, and a lot of my audience is extremely interested in positive reinforcement. And of course, that's a very broad term. So, it's like, let's not get into the science of it. There's four quadrants, da da, people can learn that. Because otherwise, they're going to argue with me and go like, you're not even talking about the right thing. So, let's just be very general about it.

Jessica Gonzalez: 14:02

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 14:03

So, I'm curious, when you're building this relationship with these horses that have come with their own traumas and their own backgrounds and I imagine you give them some time to decompress and you move, you you move at their pace, you're not gonna push anybody into anything. Same thing with a child or a young person that needs help. You're not gonna go, what's wrong with you?

Jessica Gonzalez: 14:20

Get over it!

Barbara O’Brien: 14:21

You you might say what happened to you, but not what's wrong with you. You know, and so the same thing with a horse or anything else. So how does that work, the force-free animal care and training and are you using treats, because there's a big controversy about how to use treats properly, you know, things like that. So yeah, let's just kind of start like. What does that look like?

Jessica Gonzalez: 14:40

So, yes, we use treats. Primarily we use hay pellets just because we can kind of be loose and wild with them because...

Barbara O'Brien: 14:48

Right. So, for our audience, it'd be like a compressed alfalfa or compressed Timothy hay. It's a small little pellet. So, you're not feeding giant handfuls, getting too much for the horse or too sugary, too sweet for horses that have problems with that. It's just something they desire and like, but it's not, it's the difference between like a regular dog treat, a piece of steak versus a piece of steak. You know, it's, just something that you can continually do without causing any dietary problem for the horse, but still motivating, right?

Jessica Gonzalez: 15:15

Exactly. Yep, because like if a 1,000-pound horse eats 15 to 20 pounds of hay a day, well, one or two pounds of hay pellets is not going to make a big impact on their diet every day. So, especially we, I think that it's really cool when people come to our program, and they see we've got kids throwing food at horses every which way and our horses are better behaved than most you'd ever see in the world because they understand the game. They understand how to work for the food, how to work with the kids, and they understand the process of it all. So, we don't have issues with horses being pushy or.

Barbara O'Brien: 15:57

Mugging the person or whatever, because they know that if I wait and do, you know, do the A or B or whatever, I will be rewarded. So, what's the cue? Like, do they turn their head away a little bit or how do you tell them that, you know, you can't mug me? I mean, how do you teach that?

Jessica Gonzalez: 16:10

So generally, if we have a horse who's ready to go, the first thing we teach them is stand still, face forward. And that I kind of equate to like a dog's sit-stay.

Barbara O'Brien: 16:21

Yes.

Jessica Gonzalez: 16:22

Can you just stand here and not do anything for a minute while I move around you, while I brush you, while I get the stuff ready? You just stand here and chill and not be in my space. And once they have that well established, where I can really move comfortably around them, then we generally teach them to touch target. And because with dogs, we tend to use a lot of food luring, but with horses, we need that extra space between us and them. And I find that horses, if you lure them directly with food, they tend to get focused on the food and they're not really thinking about what behavior got the food. They just, the behavior is chase the food. So, using a target really helps them.

Barbara O'Brien: 17:10

Can you explain for our audience what you mean by a target then so that they understand?

Jessica Gonzalez: 17:13

Yeah, a target is any object that they touch with their nose to get it click in a tree. And generally, I use we have these dollar store fluffy dusters that are extendable. So, it you can make it really small.

Barbara O'Brien: 17:30

Like a Swiffer, sort of.

Jessica Gonzalez: 17:31

Yeah, it's like a Swiffer. Yeah. And you can make it small, and it just looks like a fluffy ball. And you can make it long so it's on a stick.

Barbara O’Brien: 17:41

To give you some space. Yep.

Jessica Gonzalez: 17:42

Exactly. So, you can lead the horse with that. You could, we do a lot of agility with the kids and the horses. So, at first, they're literally just following a target over an obstacle or around a barrel or something like that. And then over time we fade out the target and we get all the behaviors on cue. But it's a nice easy way for kids to work safely with the horses. Even doing fun, active things like going over a jump.

Barbara O'Brien: 18:12

Oh, yeah.

Jessica Gonzalez: 18:13

But the horse is just following a target, you know?

Barbara O’Brien: 18:15

That's gotta be thrilling for a young person if they've been working with a horse and the horse wants to play and the horse wants to be with them. It's gotta be thrilling because we can subject horses to, I'm gonna ride you, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, it's all the human's agenda, right? But when you're doing sort of like liberty training in a sense and it's very positive like how we would train a dog for a movie or something, know what mean, like positive animal training, it's gotta be just a blast. I mean, the horse feels good, kid feels good, everybody's winning here.

Jessica Gonzalez: 18:43

Yeah, it really is. I think some kids, they have a hard time with the social aspect of it because all their friends are going to regular riding barns, and they are doing something so different. And it's hard to, you know, oh we ride, but our focus is sending them from one target to another. And their friend is like, well, I just won a ribbon at a show.

Barbara O'Brien: 19:09

Right.

Jessica Gonzalez: 19:10

And that can be really hard. But we try to make it fun for them. And I think that most of our kids are here for the connection and the relationship. And uh, so even if they don't get the big competitions or showing off in front of their friends, they really see the benefit that they're building a relationship with their horse. And it's, the horse has a lot more choice and control over their situation. So.

Barbara O'Brien: 19:37

Let's talk about your book. Does your book explain sort of the techniques that you were just talking about? Your book is called Equine Empowerment: A Guide to Positive Reinforcement Training.

Jessica Gonzalez: 19:46

Yep, our book, we really go heavy into the sciences. We talk about the three sciences. I think a lot of people focus just on behavioral science, which is important. That's how we're modifying their behavior. But we also talk a lot about ethology of the horse. So, uh, ethology is really, sorry, that's my donkey braying really loud.  

Barbara O'Brien: 20:08

I love it. Yeah. Let them in, let them in.

Jessica Gonzalez: 20:12

I know, I don't know what he's going on about. But, uh, ethology is kind of the study of who horses are in nature and how they behave, how they interact, and what their needs are. And understanding ethology is really important to meeting their needs in domestication. If we don't understand how horses would live if they had free choice, we don't know how to make their life appropriate in domestication. And then the third science that I go into pretty heavily is neuroscience of emotions. I'm kind of a neuroscience geek. So, I really love to understand how emotions work, how they influence ourselves and our body and our behaviors and how we can help build healthier mental health for everyone.

Barbara O'Brien: 21:05

Young people must see pretty easily pretty quickly that if they come upset, the horse can feel that. But they can what I've learned is if I'm upset or whatever I can say to the horse I'm upset and I've had a bad day instead of trying to cover it up and pretend I'm something I'm not because the horse is gonna know that I'm I'm covering up or if I'm afraid I can say, you know, I'm a little afraid I need to take a breath, you know, I need to whatever as opposed to bullying through, because we always taught as horse people, know, just get back on, you know what I mean? And the horse goes, wait, your emotions aren't matching your body. I'm getting two different signals. And that's more upsetting for a horse than if I had just flat out said, I'm a little afraid. I'm going to take a pause, I’m going to, we're just going to breathe through, you know, I'm going to figure this out together. We'll figure this out. Do you find your young people pick up on that? Like learn that pretty easily. Like be authentic with themselves. It's better for the horse and then work on regulating.

Jessica Gonzalez: 21:59

I think so. It's interesting because we have kids that have come from traditional programs and moved here, and they come with that very masked defense.

Barbara O'Brien: 22:09

Masked is a good word.

Jessica Gonzalez: 22:10

Yeah, they are very focused on, I have to look tough, I have to look brave, and you you'll tell them to do something and you'll see them, you know, super nervous, like tiptoeing around the horses and then you're like, just stop. You don't have to do; you don't have to go that far. You can slow down. You, we can break this into steps for you. And, but then the kids that have grown up with only this, they've seen how we model it with the horses. You know, if a horse starts to amp up, we immediately break down the criteria. take, it into small steps. We focus on relaxation. And just the other day we have a young Mustang that we're training how to ride.

Barbara O'Brien: 22:53

Goodness, that's a challenge.

Jessica Gonzalez: 22:57

He came to us because he flunked out of a Mustang training program, and he was too aggressive for them even to begin handling. So, he was never handled when we got him, and he was quite aggressive. He turned his fear into anger very quickly and he was young, and he had to fight for all of his resources. All the, he was put into a... a holding pen with all these adult stallions and he was only a yearling. So, he had to fight for anything he wanted. So, he was extreme resource guarder. He was very aggressive the first year we had him. It was a long year of a lot of just generous, conditioning, classically conditioning humans as not a bad thing. You are not here to take your food.

Barbara O'Brien: 23:49

You know, it's really, it's really good you say that because most people will not take the time it takes to get a horse to trust his environment and trust, you know, what's happening around him, especially when that's off the range, you know, with no good human experiences and been around horses that were too hard on him. So, cause most people are like, I got a new horse and I'm going to ride him two days from now and expect him to like... be not upset at all about being uprooted from his friends, uprooted from a, because they love routine, being uprooted from a routine, you know, all the new, even though he's a calm horse, maybe the dangers of a new place he hasn't figured out is that dangerous, is that not dangerous? Because that's his wiring to worry about things. They don't give him the benefit of the doubt. And a horse that's just letting a horse be a horse and that continually showing up, showing up as a positive thing with no expectations. I'm not going to make you do anything. I'm just going to; I'm just going to let you be a horse. What a healing time for the horse.

Jessica Gonzalez: 24:45

It took him a long time. It did and a lot longer than most of our horses. And honestly, even after we kind of got him over the hump of immediately seeing a human and becoming angry and frustrated and resource guarding and defensive, we could start training behaviors, but it was a very slow process. So, it's been about three years, before now we feel like, okay, he's like a normal horse now, you know, you could put a halter on him, you could lead him somewhere, you can do agility, and there's still, you're still watching his emotional level to make sure he's not spiking. But he's mostly normal. Hi!

Barbara O'Brien: 25:27

Yeah, so this is Marigold. Marigold. A cat just walked into frame for those of you that are only listening, but there she's like, what are you doing?

Jessica Gonzalez: 25:37

We had a donkey named Marigold.

Barbara O’Brien: 25:39

Okay, there you go. There you go. Take it. You don't want to see that.

Jessica Gonzalez: 25:41

So, we had one of our kids’ students, she's 12, and she has been the one who's been working with him and training him how to ride. And a couple of days ago, she really feeling nervous about riding and she didn't want to tell me. And uh, she told one of the other kids and one of the other kids told me like, she's just not into it today, she's kind of nervous. And I pulled her aside and I told her, if you have a reason why today you're not comfortable riding, don't get on. You're right. You're reading this situation. You're reading the horse in front of you. You're reading yourself in the moment. If I'm feeling uncomfortable today, I'm not in the right mindset to get on a horse that's gonna feel that and be made more nervous by that. And we made it a really big deal for her to... to be super honest about her emotions and that she's advocating for her horse's needs, that she's advocating for her needs. And we went, we did something really fun with him instead and it was a good day.

Barbara O'Brien: 26:48

Yeah, everybody was happy in the end. So that's great.

Jessica Gonzalez: 26:51

Yeah, why push through only to have something bad inevitably happen because that's when it's gonna happen.

Barbara O’Brien: 26:58

You know, didn't I learn that lesson the hard way? I hear you. Okay. Let's see. I'm going to look at my notes here. Okay, so, we talked about your book, Positive Reinforcement, Running the Rescue. Okay. So how do the young people find you? Is this like something formal? Is there like, I how do they, I know it's a lot of word, I'm guessing a lot of word of mouth. But do you work with County services? Do you work with schools? How do they find you? And then did you have to go through particular vetting to be working with young people? Do you have volunteers that you have to like, like in 4-H for instance, everyone goes through a background check. I'm asking this because I love the concept of your program. And I'm wondering how a person could duplicate at other places. Cause there's certainly a need.

Jessica Gonzalez: 27:49

Yeah, so there's really not any formality to how to run a program like this, unfortunately, because we're not officially a therapeutic riding program or therapeutic horsemanship program. But I did take the time to get certified as a PATH International therapeutic riding instructor.

Barbara O'Brien: 28:12

Okay.

Jessica Gonzalez: 28:13

And that's all very traditional. It's not positive reinforcement. It's not…

Barbara O’Brien: 28:17

Are they traditionally when like special needs, you know, not so much mental health sometimes, but more physical things? Yeah, they do a great job.

Jessica Gonzalez: 28:30

It's more, yeah, physical adaptations. Sometimes it's autism or, you know, it's really focused on teaching the student how to ride a horse around whatever their needs might be.

Barbara O'Brien: 28:40

Right. Your program is different.

Jessica Gonzalez: 28:43

Yeah, it's a different type of program, but I felt it was important for me to have that background just so that I could, you know, have a broader scope of what the needs might be and understand how to adapt things where we might need some adaptations. We do have a lot of students on the autism spectrum. We do have a lot of students with mental health disorders and learning my personal boundaries. I worked a lot with counselors and social workers to learn where do I, yeah, where do I put my walls up because...

Barbara O’Brien: 29:14

That's a hard thing. That's a hard thing.

Jessica Gonzalez: 29:16

Yeah, because it is hard.

Barbara O’Brien: 29:20

Yeah, because you want to, can't, know, if love could fix them, they'd all be cured. And it just doesn't work quite that way, you know?

Jessica Gonzalez: 29:26

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 29:27

But obviously you're doing what you can and sharing in the way you can. And so, I'm sure they are and everybody around them, we're all grateful for people like you because young people, especially young people going through stuff, they are not always easy. And sometimes, you know, they can lash out, there can be issues, you know, and it's like they're hurting somehow, just like a horse. And it's like, not personal, let's figure out how we can help. So, you know, good on you. And do you have a team or is it just you or how does that work?

Jessica Gonzalez: 29:55

So, it is just me, but we've been growing in the last few years and now we have got a few more adults in our program as volunteers and they're helping a lot with the business side of things so that it's a little bit less intense for me because I've been trying to wear every hat of this program. We're a nonprofit and we have a website, we have an educational program, we have the kids’ program and the rescue aspect of the program. So, it's a lot, like I had to learn how to make a website. I don't know how to do that. So…

Barbara O'Brien: 30:34

You're very good at social media. That's how I found you.

Jessica Gonzalez: 30:36

I've been trying. I'm not really, the kids taught me that.

Barbara O’Brien: 30:40

Yeah, you put out articles on social media. And that's how I found you because I wouldn't have found you otherwise. So that's cool. So, we will be putting like links to your nonprofit and all that stuff.

Jessica Gonzalez: 30:53

Thank you.  

Barbara O’Brien: 30:54

But how can people help? Locally, great, they can get in touch with you. So where are you located?

Jessica Gonzalez: 30:59

So, we're in in Maine, York, Maine. So, it's like right over the border of New Hampshire.

Barbara O'Brien: 31:05

Okay, sure. All right. Beautiful country, I'm sure. And for those of us that can't physically come, direct them to your website and there's ways that they can help, or they can learn more, things like that, of course.

Jessica Gonzalez: 31:17

Yeah, our website donations are always welcome. We are run completely on public donations. So, we have 13 equines and a sheep and lots of cats that are all fed by public donations. So, we really appreciate that. Also, anything just spreading the word about positive reinforcement. A big part of our program, we can only hold about 13 equines. That's not very many in the grand scheme of things. So, a big part of our program is trying to make the world better so that we don't need to rescue as many.

Barbara O'Brien: 31:52

Yeah, yeah, I can hear you.

Jessica Gonzalez: 31:53

So, education, so spreading the education is huge for us.

Barbara O’Brien: 31:57

That's really a great program, lots of parts to it. Okay, you have kind of a lovely quote here, maybe we can talk about this. You said, “We live in a world of disposable things. You are not one of them. You are irreplaceable, one of a kind. There will never be another you. You are not disposable and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.” I love that because I'm sure so many young people and older people too, feel they're worthless. Feel that they're just not any good to anybody. With the young people that I've worked with, depression and low self-esteem and feeling like they can't contribute and nobody wants them, it's devastating. How have you found that being around the horses helps build confidence and that can help improve that?

Jessica Gonzalez: 32:48

Well, I think that that's where our program really stands out above other programs because our program is the place that disposable horses go. Horses by nature are treated disposably. If they are useful to humans, they'll be given a good life. But the minute they're not able to be used, they're thrown out. Even if it's temporary, I think more so than any other pet animal, because they're kind of trapped between livestock, pets, and sports equipment.

Barbara O'Brien: 33:25

Yeah, and it's not cheap to take care of a horse. I mean, it's a commitment, you know.

Jessica Gonzalez: 33:28

It sure isn't. So, if you have one horse and you want to ride, sometimes that means that you have to get rid of a horse so that you can get a rideable horse. And that is really unfortunate. And I really feel like that's not a lesson that our kids should be learning. I mean, we wouldn't want them to do that to grandma when grandma can't play anymore. We should really be teaching our kids that. You know, if not a lifetime commitment, if you can't promise a lifetime, at least promise that you're going to make sure that they go somewhere safe and that they're going to be cared for for their lifetime too. So, I think in seeing the way that we treasure each horse as an individual is really kind of points back to the kids too. You know, we have, we have blind horses who couldn't be ridden. We have animals with trauma. We have horses that have worked. We have one who worked at a large theme park in Florida, whose name I'm not allowed to say. He, you know, he was, he worked really well. He did a great job in his life. And when he couldn't work anymore, he needed to find a home to go to. And that's where we came in. And he is just treasured here.

Barbara O'Brien: 34:51

Oh, I bet.

Jessica Gonzalez: 34:52

He's like everybody's favorite. So, I think for people to see that second chances are available, that no matter what you've been through, no matter what your disability might be or what your differences are, there's a place in the world for you and you'll be loved for that. You know.

Barbara O'Brien: 35:15

Yeah, absolutely. That's great. Okay, now it's time for the questions, which we took from Tim Ferriss's excellent book. What book would you recommend and why?

Jessica Gonzalez: 35:8

I think, Plenty in Life is Free from Cathy Stout. That one to me, you I think we've read all the science books about positive reinforcement, but Plenty and Life is Free is really focused on, it doesn't have to be a contingency. It doesn't have to be a deal, an arrangement. We can just love each other and love and food and good stuff.

Barbara O'Brien: 35:58

Well, we could sure use that as a country right now, that's for sure.

Jessica Gonzalez: 36:01  

Yeah, it's free. You know, you can give love for free, and it doesn't cost you anything and it doesn't hurt anyone. So just share it, especially with our animals and our kids. Just why you don't have to put everything on life on contingency. You don't have to make everything a deal at all. And I think that's that for me, that book made a big impact on me.

Barbara O'Brien: 36:27

And the title of the book again?

Jessica Gonzalez: 36:30

Plenty in Life is Free.

Barbara O’Brien: 36:31

And who wrote it?

Jessica Gonzalez: 36:32

I think Cathy Stow.

Barbara O'Brien: 36:34

Okay, okay, well, good, all right. What is the most valuable thing that you put your time into that has changed the course of your life?

Jessica Gonzalez: 36:47

Probably the rescue that I grew up at. I was trying to think if there was anything different, but it really was that. I grew up at that rescue and it gave me my mindset of providing a safe place for horses, especially horses at their end of life who have been kind of let down by their humans to give them a place where they can get what they deserve, a good end of life.

Barbara O'Brien: 37:11

So that's great, that's good. In the last five years, what new belief, behavior, or habit has most improved your life?

Jessica Gonzalez: 37:24

That's tricky. Let's see. I think belief is, originally, I was very focused on behavioral science and then I kind of started to realize that all these sciences, all these different ways of looking at animals are all looking at the same picture and they're not against each other, they're complementary to each other. So, it's this idea that, you know, a lot of people are like well it's strict behaviorism or strict emotional like relationship building and but there's there's a heavy balance to all of it and you can find, I feel like the truth is always in the middle you know.

Barbara O'Brien: 38:18

Yeah. That is so true. That is so true. She's sitting on my question, so I have to move the cat there. Okay. What inspires and motivates you to do what you do and what is your true purpose in the world?

Jessica Gonzalez: 38:33

The kids and the horses, obviously. And I think... I think the fact that the need exists motivates me to do it. I think that I needed it so much as a kid growing up. I needed animals in my life. I needed horses. And they helped me survive. They helped me overcome my growth. And they helped me develop into a person I'm proud to be. So, I want that for every other kid that's in that same situation.

Barbara O'Brien: 39:41

Yeah, it's a good thing. It's a good thing. And you're doing it. I mean, you're doing it.

Jessica Gonzalez: 39:15

I'm trying. Some days easier than most.

Barbara O'Brien: 39:19

Sure. The last question, what did you want to be as a child and how close did you get to that dream?

Jessica Gonzalez: 39:25

I absolutely wanted to be a horse rescuer. I had all different ideas of what that would look like, but I knew that, I think when I worked in the, I worked as a carriage driver in the city, cause that was the only job that had horses in the city. And that's when I narrowed it down to, I want to rescue draft horses that have been working. But yeah, yeah, I always wanted to be a horse rescuer.

Barbara O'Brien: 39:55

Yeah. Well, and you are, that's pretty great. Okay, so let's just recap. You can give out the name of your website too. We're going to add this to the show notes, where can they, A, we find your book, B, where can we, like go ahead and say your website, how to find you if you're on social media, that sort of thing, kind of the rundown so that people can find you and learn more about what you're doing.

Jessica Gonzalez: 40:16  

Yeah, we are Empowered Equines, and we're empowered equines on every social media. So, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, we're all Empowered Equines and our website is empoweredequines.com and our book is Equine Empowerment. And I think that's everything.

Barbara O'Brien: 40:36

Okay, where do we find the book?

Jessica Gonzalez: 40:38

You can find the book on any large bookseller. So, like Amazon or books.com, anything like that.

Barbara O’Brien: 40:45  

Writing a book is a huge endeavor. mean, that's quite an accomplishment just right off the bat. That is something. So that's...

Jessica Gonzalez: 40:52

It took me like five years, but I'm actually I am almost done and almost published a kids book series. So, it's for kids, but adults will appreciate it too, because it just simplifies it all.

Barbara O'Brien: 41:05

Yeah, there's so little out there for, because I have grandchildren now that are going to be riding, you know, my horses and hanging out with me a lot with the horses. That's my goal. I'm going to get a rider out of one of them. Anyway, they all love animals. I try to explain what is this horse feeling? What is this ear saying? What, you know, but to have a children's book that can explain it better, because, you know, they're always going to learn better from someone besides their own relative. It's just the nature of it, you know. So, a guide, a guide would be extremely helpful, something that they can read and understand on their own. mean, well done you, because

Jessica Gonzalez: 41:39

Yeah, so it's almost ready.

Barbara O’Brien: 41:40

I think that's great. That's great. Okay. Well, I tell you, Jessica, this has been really enlightening and motivating because we're building the indoor arena. We're in Wisconsin, so the same kind of winters. It's, you know, cold, windy, wet, muddy, everything. The culmination of a, 30, 40-year dream to build this arena to better...

Jessica Gonzalez: 42:01

I was gonna say, that's my dream too.

Barbara O'Brien: 42:03

And then it has a photo studio attached, which means I can keep doing my work and training other animals. The cat is pulling on my headphone. It's like, hey, all right. That's my dream too. And we have taken in young people in the past that actually came and lived with us and were like daughters to us. So, we're not into that anymore so much now that we're older, but I know the healing power of animals. And so, I may be bothering you in the future like, okay, how did you do that? How did you do that?

Jessica Gonzalez: 42:33

Anytime.

Barbara O’Brien: 42:34

Because I've got rescue horses here that, you know, and the sheep, which is a whole nother show because how sheep can work as therapy animals is another thing.

Jessica Gonzalez: 42:42

Sheep are amazing.

Barbara O’Brien: 42:44

And yeah, there's just so much to learn, but I feel like if we build it, they will come. cause I just have to open that door, and I feel like you will.

Jessica Gonzalez: 42:52

And I think we put a lot of focus on like, is this horse gonna be okay for kids? Honestly, every horse is okay for kids. You might have to use protected contact. You might have to really slow down the training with the kids, but kids will adapt to the horse in front of them. We have a completely blind horse who you couldn't touch at all.

Barbara O'Brien: 43:12

No, because he doesn't know where coming from, you know.

Jessica Gonzalez: 43:14

Like, she was terrified of humans, terrified. And it was a 12-year-old who built the first relationship with her because she was small, she was soft, she read her body language, and she took the time to develop a relationship. So, every horse is a kid's horse.

Barbara O'Brien: 43:31

Yeah, I think children are much more intuitive with their animals and much more willing to talk to them, to literally talk to them with a conversation, to be accepting. They're not demanding that this horse be or perform or much more open and honest in a way. Right.

Jessica Gonzalez: 43:48

Yes. Yep. She had no schedule in her mind. Like for me, I'm like, okay, we have to get her wearing a halter. We have to get her doing this. And she's like, I just want to hang with her. You know? That's what she needs.

Barbara O'Brien: 44:01

Yeah, there's a purity to that. It's lovely. Well, Jessica, Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time to share what you've been doing and keep it up. I mean, good on you. I'm thrilled

Jessica Gonzalez: 44:09

Thank you

Barbara O’Brien: 44:10

I'm thrilled for you. Thanks for taking the time.

Jessica Gonzalez: 44:13

Thank you so much.

Exit Music: 44:18