Ingrid Henry - What we are Trying to Communicate is Trust - S2 E20

(Intro Music):  0:00

Barbara O’Brien: 0:14
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer and I'd like to welcome you to The Empathetic Trainer.

(Music): 0:21

Barbara O’Brien: 0:27
Hello, this is Barbara O’Brien and you're listening to The Empathetic Trainer podcast. Today's guest is really cool and you're all going to love to hear what she has to say about horses in our relationship. Ingrid Henry is an equine coach at The Harmonious Equestrian Connection. She offers a unique experience that utilizes classical dressage, biomechanics and customized training for each horse and rider. Ingrid believes that consistency and trust are two very important things for building a strong and lasting relationship with your horse. Well, Ingrid, I couldn't agree more. Trust is the main thing. I think that's the communication, so I think welcome, glad to have you here.

Ingrid Henry: 1:08

Thank you. It's awesome to be here. I've really enjoyed your podcast and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:14
Yeah, I think everyone will benefit and I'm sure horses will if people take it to heart. Certainly, through my own journey with building trust with my Morgans, who remind me of Mustangs, my Morgans from Montana the range um building trust is is huge and still working on it every day. Well, let's start with um. Um, what it was like for you growing up. How did you get into horses, how did you get into building your business the way you are? Um, even a little bit about podcasting. I think that's cool that you have a podcast, and we'll certainly share that in all the show info, because people should go to your podcast and listen to what you have to say and the amazing guests that you have.

Ingrid Henry: 1:50
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I've always been a horse lover. It did not come from my family, but I remember when I was four years old, one of my first memories was there were ponies that we could ride around the park or something, and I was so excited to get to ride. So, for me it's just been a lifelong love, and my aunt is a horse lover, but the rest of my family is not. My parents, though, were very understanding, and I took lessons as a young kid and leased a horse when I was in middle school, got to own a horse when I was in high school, and I participated in pony club and just enjoyed my horse. I remember in middle school riding that mare bareback while she grazed. You know things that you're probably not supposed to do, but I really enjoyed the connection always, not just the riding part as a sport, but for me it was primarily about the relationship with the animal, and I love that I could have my own and really develop that bond, more so than when you take lessons.

Barbara O’Brien: 2:57
Oh, certainly because horses know their people, there's no doubt and appreciate the good people. I was lucky in the same way. I got to ride horses from like 7th grade on when I started working for riding privileges and did that until I got married and eloped so I could live on the farm where the horse was, still live on a farm, still have the same husband, still have horses. So, I got pretty lucky there. So, I understand that and there was a lot of freedom. At least we had Wasn't a lot of adult intervention. I don't know how well I learned to ride, but riding bareback just all over everywhere, and back then we didn't have the wisdom of helmets like we do now. So, things like that. So, I can appreciate that. Let's talk a little bit about the business that you're running right now and how you help people and horses.

Ingrid Henry: 3:47
Sure, well, I consider myself practically a professional amateur. So, I just started my business a couple years ago at nearly 40 years old, and before that I was an amateur rider. I had a mare that I had raised from a yearling and, with the trainer's help, started her. I was the first person on her back, but she was a Friesian cross and had a really good, safe sort of temperament. She challenged everything. Any thought that I had, she was like do I have to, why? And so, I learned a lot from her and never really thought I'd be a professional, just figured I was your typical amateur. And then I got my second horse and whereas my first mare was lazy, this one was sensitive and anxious and just the total opposite side of the spectrum. I had to help her find calm and confidence, and so I learned a lot from both of them. In fact, I had a farrier once asked me how do you have two horses who are so different? And I very seriously looked at him and I said, well, I'm like both of them. And he totally cracked up because he's like how can you be like both of them? But it's true, I have my mare that I raised. I have the same sort of confidence that she does, and opinionatedness. And then that other mare. I have her sensitivity and, you know, I do feel like I related to both of them, even though they were very different.

Barbara O’Brien: 5:18
Oh, you're right about that, yeah.

Ingrid Henry: 5:20
Yeah, I mean you can right relate to them even though they're different. It just kind of happened when I lost my young mare. She was 14 and in the prime of her life and sadly got sick. I discovered in the necropsy that it was a ruptured esophagus that she suffered with, yeah, and she'd never choked, didn't have a history of it. It was very out of the blue and very sad. She was not yet 14.

Barbara O’Brien: 5:50
Oh, that must have been heartbreaking.

Ingrid Henry: 5:52
Yeah. So, when I went through that period I still had my older mare and I was glad to have a horse still to love and she needed me because they had been best friends. But through that process I discovered also sort of rediscovered a love of riding, because all of my friends were like well, don't give up, you know, ride my horse. And in that process, I discovered just how valuable it had been to me to have the one that you were so bonded with. Right, I think it's easy to take that for granted, don't we all want a heart horse, as we call it.

Barbara O’Brien: 6:32
Literally a heart horse. Yeah, I get it.

Ingrid Henry: 6:34
But to have lost that. You know, it was like who am I without her? And I did find rediscover my love of horses and my love of riding and I rode a whole bunch of different horses in that time period and even my trainer was pleasantly surprised at what a good rider I was without the horse. That was so challenging, and I don't know. It was kind of during that period that I realized a lot of people wanted the kind of relationship I had had with my horse and didn't know how to get there.

Barbara O’Brien: 7:08
Right.

Ingrid Henry: 7:09
And I thought that I could share my story and help people on that same journey that, um, I truly believe that a hard horse is not necessarily something that just you meet and boom, you're, you're besties. It's a process, and with my horse, your besties. It's a process, and with my horse it was particularly challenging. I raised her from a baby, but she was quite a challenging personality, and I had to. I'm not sure that I ever completely had her respect as her leader. I think she was kind of one of those very opinionated horses that just it was in her to challenge things and in a dominance perspective. I'm not sure that I was number one all the time, but but we definitely trusted each other. I would take her out on bareback trail rides around the property.  Um, I felt very safe with her, even though she had her own ideas and I.  There were so many times as a young horse that I wanted to give up on her and I just wanted people to know that, like any relationship, sometimes you have to work for it. Sometimes it's not easy. You have to figure out what motivates them, what do they like, how can you meet them where they're at, and I just it occurred to me I could do this thing and and share. Actually, that's how the podcast started. It was the first thing. My first season is about hard horses, and I interviewed a bunch of people who have have or had had a hard horse and their story. I just wanted people to know some of those themes that you might have to stick with a challenging horse to get to the other side, to find that level of connection.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:51
Oh, I understand completely. Those people who have been listening to the podcast know about my. I have seven horses right now, seven Morgans, but the old ones are old, retired Morgans from Forever Morgan's Rescue and places like that. The three young ones, oh, and then the brand new one that is a riding horse actually. Another whole other story. The three young ones that came from Montana came as a three-year-old and two yearlings fillies, and the two yearling fillies were just completely malleable, like I'm with you, I know, you know I've been on the range, but people are great and now they're a three-year-old and they're a blast, just a blast, like what a joy. You know, the three-year-old, who's now five, has always been a challenge because she is worried that I'm not going to be, I'm not a good leader, and I don't blame her because I have this. When we first got her, we couldn't get close to her, and she would kick out defensively if you got close. Never had horses like that, and so I was afraid. I'm like I don't know how to handle this. But after learning more about attunement and body language and calmness and trying to like regulate myself, then she got calmer. So, it's been two years and so now I'm not afraid of worried about her kicking me. But she gets wound up pretty fast, like if something, because she was the watcher of her herd of like there's 60 mares and foals, so she was a watcher, one of the watchers. That's her job, kind of how she perceived the world. And so, she came here in a brand-new environment, although it's very quiet and open, rural Wisconsin she is definitely still there, could be, you know, there'd be monsters somewhere and I know she rests. I know she lays down; I know she, you know, is doing all the things she needs to do to be healthy and it's certainly gotten better. But it's amazing the difference between when I handle her and when my trainer, Tiffany Stauffer who I've done ahead of my podcast, who's a Liberty trainer and does beautiful work with attunement and working with horses. With Tiffany, she goes oh it's you. Okay, you know I can let go, I don't have to watch, I'm with you, I trust you. With me, she goes, well, you're afraid of something. Are you afraid of me? Should I be afraid? What are we afraid of? And then she picks up all my feelings and Tiffany said to me you have to work out your fear from her because she's not doing anything that is causing this. You're living the fear you had when you got hurt by that other horse, broke your pelvis, all this stuff happened to you. Your hard horse died. You're projecting everything onto this poor mare who's done nothing. You know it was kind of eye-opening like, yeah, probably, how do I fix it? So, yeah.  So, horses read us for sure. You know, um, so I guess other people would call her challenging, like you know. Um, I have not backed her, she's just five. I'm letting her bones grow, I'm letting her back grow, I'm letting her. So, you know, we do groundwork, and you know and then. But if she gets up, then my body gets up too, and I have to learn how not to do that. So how, how would you help someone in my case? I'm sure there's a lot of us who are a little bit afraid of our horses, and she's only 14 hands. I can't imagine having a big horse.

Ingrid Henry: 12:05
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely challenging, I think, horses. I've come to the conclusion that Elena, my young horse that I had raised, that I lost, that one of her purposes on earth was to teach me and, in her case, it was a little different. It wasn't really so much about the fear, but with her it was that I would get frustrated.  I'd ask her to trot, and she wouldn't trot, and I'd get frustrated and then she'd get frustrated back and that was our spiral. It was sort of a frustration spiral but she eventually, with some hope from a trainer, I learned not to get frustrated, that that she was a horse that just took a while to warm up, and I let that go and I just let that be and I praised her when she did do the things I asked, even if it wasn't her full capability physically. If she was at all willing. I praised her and I learned how to control myself, because that's kind of what I'm getting at that each of us horses have so much to teach us in terms of the self-knowledge and awareness of our emotions and all of that. So when I'm working with someone who's dealing with fear which, by the way, I truly believe, all horse people do at some point deal with some fear. Usually if they have had an accident or have been hurt, then the fear creeps in with their future interactions with horses.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:42
Yeah, yeah, no, I get it. I'll just interrupt you just for a second. Um, for those that don't know, a couple of years ago I had a Arab mare that we rescued and I love Arabs, I love my Morgans, I love Arabs. Um, we got her out of a bad situation, got her healthy, got her going again. She was trained to ride. Um, but I was moving really slowly, groundwork, things like that thought I was building relationship. But when I slid onto her bareback from the fence, you know, just a halter, not asking anything after like time and time and quiet, wasn't reading her body language and so when I asked her to move, she kind of went and I've never been on a horse that bucked. I just haven't really been like I mean, crow hops, yes, but not a serious buck. And I asked her to move again, like you know, just a squeeze, can we just move away from you know, a few steps? That's all I'm asking for you. She huffed up again and then she bucked really hard. Well, I think it was really hard and just a halter, no saddle, of course. I went flying off and I landed, like when somebody has a mop bucket and a mop sign, when somebody is clean, you know, in a commercial space, and they have the guy that is like landing on his hip, like his legs are up, his arms are up. It's an illustration. You know this like this bent body. I landed really hard and broke my pelvis in three spots, and I have never been hurt on a horse. I mean, I've kicked a few times, you know, but never seriously hurt. And I was, um, already, like you know, 60 years old at that point, 59, 60 years old, um, so a couple of years ago. And it just that that threw me so hard that, um, I mean not she literally threw me, but I figure she's it was in pain. I think you know something was going on with her back, there was something I missed, something I just wasn't paying attention to, thought I was learning attunement, thought I was learning those things pushing way too fast, going too fast. So I project, I believe the minute a horse gets higher brings up their level of anxiety. Mine involuntarily kicks in. So, it's a joy that I have a new horse that came to me. It was an 18-year-old, morgan Gelding, been there, done that fellow, and that's been fantastic because I can ride him bareback with no fear and he's great. But Rita transfers, I'm scared of the five-year-old mare I have now.

Ingrid Henry: 16:03
Sure, it makes sense. You realize how fragile you are. You realize how dangerous they are, even if they're not trying to hurt you but perhaps dealing with some fear or whatever if you miss the signals. So, I think a lot of it is the things that you already were doing with that Arab mare right Attunement, paying attention, learning their body language, checking in. One of the things that one of the experiences I thought I'd talk about actually is what happened with me that caused me to have fear recently. I had recently become a professional trainer and was an assistant trainer and was restarting a horse and we took it from the beginning, did groundwork, then then, you know, leaned over him, then got on, then got off, you know all the baby steps and I was up to the point of riding him, walk, trot and canter off the lunge line. But there was a horse in the arena, in the round pen which was located inside the arena. That was very upset, I'd say. It was certainly eager to move, having been cooped up in a stall, it was moving very fast, but I think it was also agitated and the horse I was riding was not okay with that, like he'd been fine as I had lunged him and then as I got on, but he saw that horse and was just like what is wrong with them I'm so worried and was just like what is wrong with them. I'm so worried what's going on. And he did this little like I might bolt, or I might buck, or you know. And then I calmed him down and there were other trainers in the arena and I felt that I needed to stay on.

Barbara O’Brien: 17:38
Sure.

Ingrid Henry: 17:39
So I did, and he did it again. Like oh, I don't know, I'm not okay with that, and I stayed on again. But I had this little niggling voice, I call it, you know, your intuition, right. That said, maybe it would be better to get off. You know, just get them comfortable again. You can always get back on later. But I ignored it. And then, third time, he took off galloping and bucking, broncing. I can ride a buck, but this was big.

Barbara O’Brien: 18:06
Yeah, no.

Ingrid Henry: 18:11
I get it and eventually I came off in the corner of the arena. I, thankfully, was wearing a helmet and a safety vest and just had a headache, so probably a mild concussion from it. But I also learned my lesson that it doesn't matter how much relationship you've developed with the horse, If they go over threshold you're not safe with them and you should really listen to your intuition about where that line is and if, if you get the sense that you should stop or go back to where the horse feels safe, help them from the ground or or you know, if you were asking anything of them, any pressure, is there a way to step that back? Anyway, so after that I definitely dealt with a lot of fear. I did get back on him, in fact that same day and a couple weeks later, after trying to work myself up to it, I did ride him again, but I was definitely very nervous with him. So, even though here I am a professional trainer, I'm like, okay, that's all right, we're going to do what it takes. I'm going to ride the horses I feel safe to ride and I'm only going to ride them. And if I only feel safe at a walk, I'm only going to walk.

Barbara O’Brien: 19:19
That is so gratifying to hear because you know, we, we compare ourselves to others and oh, these people are riding their five-year-old and they're doing this and that, and dah, dah, dah, dah, you know, and and like, they're always farther ahead. You know, like when Facebook first came out or the, the social media was like, you know, oh, their life is better. You know, likely, I didn't fall into that, but there's people who do, who you know, fuss that somebody's got it better and different. It's gratifying to hear that even professionals like yourself, with lots of experience and years of riding, can have doubts and can have, you know, moments of anxiety and worry about things. I think that what you're saying is being aware of it and then letting it. You know, work through, instead of ignoring it, which the horse will pick up, whether you cause you're not being congruent at that point, so it's better to be honest and just work through your feelings with the horse.

Ingrid Henry: 20:11
And I very much advocate going back to what feels safe for you as well as for the horse and whoever. Whoever is scared, you go down to like the sort of the lowest common denominator, right. Whoever is more scared, we get to go down to where they feel safe because of the way your fear and the horse's feet on each other. And in my case, I was riding safe horses, so it was me who was setting the line and I think, more than anything, that gave me my confidence back, that I would not let my trainer or anyone else push me beyond what I felt comfortable with and because of that, all of my rides I was experiencing felt safe to me and so, with only good experiences going forward, it wasn't long before I was recovering my confidence and in fact, I sat on my baby horse that summer for the first time. But there again, my heart was thumping and I'm like, oh, is this the excitement of my first time riding my horse that I've raised from a baby, or am I scared? And I'm like, I'm not even sure. But you know what, I'm going to take a break. She was good for that, that was fine, and we'll come back to it in a bit, like maybe six months or a year. It ended up being about a year later before I got on her again and by then I was more able to regulate my emotions and my racing heart, my fear, and be like, okay, we've developed all this, more trust of all of our groundwork that we've done. She's a good girl. She didn't do anything last time; she's not going to do anything. And I was just able to calm myself further. And I was further removed from my own fear incident, you know.

Barbara O’Brien: :21:50.
No, I get it. That's why Teddy Sharp, the little Morgan Gelding that has come into my life, that's trained and rideable and, you know, just a lot of fun. So honest, such an honest little guy, it's helping me build my confidence again. I just mentioned on Facebook the other day, a couple days ago I hadn't ridden him much in June because we were working tons and tons. Finally had a chance to ride him again, figured out the cinch on my Western, because my Western saddle is the only one that fits him right now. I usually write English. The cinch was too long, it was going to hit him in the wrong spots, it wasn't set up. So, I said, well, I can't use this saddle, I'll just ride him bareback. And you know that's like being 14. I mean, it just was so much fun to just tool around the property and you know, let him feel good about it. And I asked lots of yes questions and he answered lots of yes questions and there wasn't any conflict. And I let him even decide where to go. And you think he'd be hurt bound somewhat, want to go back? No, he's like I haven't seen this part, let's go over here. And it was just like such a confidence builder that I could. Okay, I'm not going to get hurt every single time I get near, you know, on a horse.

Ingrid Henry: :22:57
Yeah, I love that. I think that's so awesome.

Barbara O’Brien: 23:00
I didn't have a riding horse for a long time my young ones and then, like I said, the rescues. We don't ride, so I didn't have a riding horse for a long time, so I got sent what I needed. This horse came into my life. Well, that’s really cool. Alright, so some of the things that, when looking at your work, I had some stuff to talk about. What are small things that you can do to deepen your connection with your horse? Any suggestions?

Ingrid Henry: 23:23
I think the biggest thing we can do to deepen our connection with our horses is not ask anything of them. Spend time with them where I call it undemanding time. You're not asking them to do anything for you. You’re just spending time in their world. And you’re watching them, and you’re observing them, if they interact with you, you can certainly interact back.  But, I think, horses are very much in the present moment. And people can often impose our ambitions and expectations on them. And they feel that as pressure.

Barbara O’Brien: 23: 56
Sure.

Ingrid Henry: 23:57

So, we all know that horses, are naturally, into pressure animals, they’ll sort of lean into that, but it can also be stressful to them.

Barbara O’Brien: 24:05
Sure.

Ingrid Henry: 4:06
So I think just spending time that's undemanding and that depends on the horse. If it's a feral horse or a rescue or something and it doesn't want to be touched, grooming would not be a comfortable thing to it. But if it's a horse that you've, you know, worked with before, and you know that they love to be scritched, you know, then, that's a great thing to do with them. It all depends on the horse, but wherever they feel safe with you, I think less is more.

Barbara O’Brien: 24:34
Oh, I'd have to agree when we found out Rita's favorites. Rita, that's the five-year-old that was anxious, her scratching spots. It's like a communication a door opens. And now it's kind of funny because now we've learned that, oh, she likes her butt scratched, you know, on top of her butt. So now when I'm out there with the group, she'll just back into me as gently as possible, telling me very clearly because of their body language I'm not going to kick your head off, it's more like please scratch me. And that's a real treat for her. It's like I. Just because she can't reach it. It makes it really hard to the unsuspecting, though if she likes you, she'll turn and want to back into you and you kind of go like whoa, what was she doing? So, it's probably not the best thing to have tot her, but but it certainly helped build relationship, cause I started out through the fence. You know, like I didn't just grab at her and reach at her, we started out scratching from through. You know, I'm on one side of the fence, she's on the other, so I wasn't afraid of getting kicked. She wasn't, um, she wasn't anxious about me moving around a lot. I was able to finally get down and touch her back, legs reach all over her body, that she realizes that nothing bad is going to happen, that it's actually quite pleasant. But that took patience and self-discipline, because it always seems like when your horse is doing great well, let's do more, and it doesn't work that way. It's better to stop at the peak of like this is wonderful. Okay, we're done for today. You know, same thing with. I'm an animal trainer, as you know, so when I work with my animal actors, it's the same thing. Um, dog's doing great on set. Great on set. He's lovely, happy, smiling, and I go okay, you got everything. I'll tell the photographer you know he needs it's like I can read that it's time, dog is done. Gave us everything. We're ending on that because I want that to be the best day ever. So, if you think about your horses and the way you interact with them, trying to always be the best day ever for them, now maybe the best day for them is out hanging, grazing and not being asked to do anything. But I found and maybe you found this to be true too when you have a horse that you're really working with in a good, positive way, they actually want to be part of the team. You talk about a herd of two, and I love that concept. Let's talk about a herd of two. Kind of goes along with what I'm saying. I think.

Ingrid Henry: 27:11
So when I first met my current horse, my filly, she was hiding behind her mom and I had seen a video of her moving and I was like she's beautiful, but I don't know one that hides behind her mom is not really for me. Me like, yeah, please scritch me, you know, and she got to come in with her mom and have grain and she's like, oh, I like coming into stalls and seeing people because I get extra attention, and I get scritchies and I get food. So, for her it was always a positive thing. It didn't take long or and it was not difficult to halter train her. We just put it on her and then we walked following mom. I didn't have to pull on it, you know she was following her mother anyway, and she was, you know, she became pretty independent pretty quick. She pretty soon was like oh, you're kind of like my second mom, like you also give me food and help me feel safe and make me feel good. Okay, so sometimes we would take her mom into a stall and her into the stall next to it, sure, and they'd both have food. They could still see each other. You know, she didn't feel separated or anxious about it.

Barbara O’Brien: 28:06
Right, you were careful not to put her over threshold.

Ingrid Henry: 28:09
Exactly, and that's what it all comes down to. Another horse might not have been okay with that same plan, so I I think that's really important in horse training to tailor it to the individual, but we definitely became a herd of two. You know, she feels like she's not alone if I'm there with her as long as I'm present and I'm safe for her.

Barbara O’Brien: 28:31
Yeah, so say you have a horse that's new to you, or an older horse you know, as opposed to a youngster who might, who might have had such good experiences and open you know where another horse might've had some bad experiences may not be as open Any suggestions for building that herd of two with with them.

Ingrid Henry: 28:49
Well, I think, there again, I would suggest the non-demanding time spend time that is good for them and not scary for them, whatever that looks like for that horse I do think a lot of horses and find out what motivates them. Right, A lot of horses respond well to grooming or scritching if they're itchy. Sometimes, I'm not above using food rewards, and not really as a reward but more as a here's, we're going to make this experience together positive and if this helps that be positive for you, then we'll do that. A third thing is just paying attention, being aware of where threshold is for them and staying under that line. So. I've I mentioned my sensitive mare, that was my second horse. Her name was Kaleidoscope, and she was very separation anxious. So taking her to a new barn, as I did when I got her, then separating her from the horse that she was turned out with, she was very nervous and I think the thing that helped the most was okay, if you're not okay, away from that herd, mate, I'll go into that pasture with you and that horse and I'll groom you there. I'll spend time with you there.

Barbara O’Brien: 29:58
Right, work with them where they're comfortable to build a relationship for sure.

Ingrid Henry: 30:02
So baby steps and find out what, like I said, what motivates them, what helps them feel safe and work within that.

Barbara O’Brien: 30:11
Yeah, that's a great idea. Well, let's talk a little bit about dressage. It looks like you just got a bronze medal. That's for those who are start from the beginning pretend that some of us know absolutely nothing about dressage. It's a competitive sport. It's kind of in the spotlight right now for good and bad reasons. So, I can imagine that you're an advocate for dressage in the way that it should be done and well for the benefit of the horse, like the best possible experience for the horse. But anyway, let's just kind of a quick primer on what dressage is and how exciting it is to win a bronze medal and how much work that was and how horses can benefit. Horses and riders can benefit from learning this ancient art together in a positive way.

Ingrid Henry: 30:58
Absolutely, I'm absolutely in love with that kind of dressage, the kind that is helping them to use their bodies in a healthier way so that they can be sounder, live longer, be happier also in their work. I've been like. I mentioned that I've done pony club, so I learned a bit about dressage and eventing from a fairly young age and it didn't take me long to discover my preference for dressage.

Barbara O’Brien: 31:26
And let's define dressage versus eventing or other sports. Pretend like they're not, because our audience is like cat and dog people as well. You know so.

Ingrid Henry: 31:34
Yeah, so eventing is. I often describe it as what Christopher Reeves did it's jumping over obstacles outside in a wide open space.

Barbara O’Brien: 31:45
Terrifying, by the way.

Ingrid Henry: 31:47
Yep. So that's the cross-country part of eventing. And then they also do show jumping, which is jumping a horse over obstacles in a fence area, and dressage, which is no jumps but just doing figures in an arena, so it might involve circles or diagonal lines across it, or serpentines or a variety of different things.

Barbara O’Brien: 32:06
It's showing like a dance and a relationship between the rider and the horse?

Ingrid Henry: 32:10
Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 32:11
When it's done properly. It looks like both are having a really good time.

Ingrid Henry: 32:13
Yes, it should be very harmonious and it's. I describe it as. Really it is a lot like dancing with the horse. You want to have a connection; you want it to flow and be fluid and and for no one horse or rider to be uncomfortable or upset. That's the ideal. Of course there are moments, especially in training, but it is always the goal that you and the horse are as confident and as comfortable as possible.

Barbara O’Brien: 32:45
Okay, and so the bronze medal. What does that mean? Pretty exciting.

Ingrid Henry: 32:49
Yeah, so a bronze medal is the first medal of its kind in dressage. There's different levels, so at the Olympics they do the Grand Prix level and a bronze medal is, like I said, sort of the bottom one where there's introductory level is walking and trotting. Training level is walk, trotting and cantering and some circles, and then a bronze medal is first, second and third levels, getting two scores from two different judges at two different shows of 60% or higher. So, it's really a pass fail. It's not a high bar, but in the way, dressage is judged. It's challenging, but I'm just saying the percentage is not particularly high, but it is challenging. So first through second levels are sort of the basics of dressage, where you might do some what we call lateral work, where the horse is moving sideways as well as forwards, developing some collection at second and third levels and some impulsion even at the first level. So it is challenging and it's a nice marker along the way of you're on the right path and you're learning what you need to learn to be effective in that discipline and to move up.

Barbara O’Brien: 34:07
That's really cool. Congratulations, that's a pretty neat thing. Okay, so I'm going to just peek at my notes here. In some of your essays you talk about the importance of perspective and attitude. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Ingrid Henry: 34:28
Yeah, so I think this goes along to what we were talking about earlier about fear and about frustration in riding. I think both are very sadly too common, but I think it's really important for us to recognize when our emotions are getting in the way of our connection with our horse and our enjoyment of our ride. So, I have a background of bachelor's in psychology, and I've always been interested in personality and emotional regulation and all those things. So, it really comes natural to me to bring that awareness to everything I do with horses and with their people. So, I help people to become more aware of how they're feeling emotionally while they're riding or interacting with their horse. A lot of what I do with people is, in fact, groundwork. It isn't necessarily involving riding at all, depending on the comfort level of the horse and the rider and what they're working on and all of that. But I think it's very important for us to be aware of how we are asking our horse to do something, and it's not just whether there's fear or frustration, but it's also things like how confident are you in what you're asking? Do you know what you're doing and does the horse know that you know what you're doing, because often horses will feel lost or like they don't have strong leadership if the handler isn't confident.

Barbara O’Brien: 35:50

And consistent.

Ingrid Henry: 35:31

And consistent, yeah, and they're master’s at reading energy, right? Yeah, so if we project a very calm, positive energy, they're drawn to us. They're like oh, you seem safe, and you know what's going on. So, I'm going to trust you. But if you're scared or if you're angry or if you're sad, even they, they feel that and they go. Hmm, you know, if they're distrustful to begin with, they might give you a little bit more birth. If you have a good relationship with your horse and you're feeling sad, they may absolutely come and like, put their head in your arms and comfort you. And I think they appreciate.

Barbara O’Brien: 36:28
Sorry, go ahead.

Ingrid Henry: 36:30
I was just gonna say I think they appreciate emotional honesty, so, being what you really feel, they do appreciate honesty, so being what you really feel they do appreciate.

Barbara O’Brien: 36:42
Absolutely. This is why horses make such excellent animals to work with in therapy for people with all kinds of issues or things going on in their lives. I've always joked how horses for me are cheaper than you know therapy or having a, because that you know. I talked to them, you know so, and I I've only suffered depression. You know it was like a serious depression at all. I've been really blessed when I was horseless you know just for a very short time, I was horseless, and then I look at it like God sent me another horse way back when, because I just can't be who I am without them. So, they, they are my therapist for sure. And when we had girls come and live with us that had lots of traumas and lots of things going on, horses were a great gift to them to be able to learn to regulate their emotions, to learn that they can be strong around something bigger. They can say, yes, please, move over, please, I'm here, I'm actually here. You know, uh, please come with me, uh, get, find their voice in a way, um, and and horses absolutely know when you're, uh, what your emotions are. You know. So they depending on the horse and what they do with them, but you're, this is for sure, a real thing depending on the horse and what they do with them, but you're, this is for sure, a real thing.

Ingrid Henry: 37:59
Yeah, and that's one of the things that I appreciate about my young filly, because she was mostly untouched when I got her. I've been able to give her a lot of confidence in handling people and our world, but she's also very sensitive because she's not been deliberately dulled down as some horses are are by their handling with people, and so I've learned how to be more aware and more intentional with the energy I bring to our sessions together. So, especially as a young horse, she would like coming in the arena and just being playful, you know, going for a run and kicking up her heels and woo, you know. And I recently started cantering her a little bit and that was the energy that helped us the most to pick up. That canter was just very woohoo, let's have fun. And I thought she might buck or something, but she did not. I think she has this awareness of me up there and wants to keep me safe. But I think it's really helpful to deepen that level of awareness, to be around animals that are still very sensitive. Your mare, who's five, also strikes me as like that, especially as she was the watcher for her herd.

Barbara O’Brien: 39:13
Yeah, she's sensitive is right.

Ingrid Henry: 39:15
It can be a gift, especially compared to the other two, you know. Yeah, it can be a gift as well as a challenge.

Barbara O’Brien: 39:22
Well, I always felt those kind of mares. Once you have the relationship, they will climb a tree for you. It's like they will, they will bond with you, the mares especially, I feel. I mean I love my gelding too, but the mares are like okay, I got your back, we're together in this. I just always felt that way, you know, because the prior hard horse was a bear like that, you know.

Ingrid Henry: 39:43
Absolutely. I love mares, and not that I don't love geldings too, but I'm absolutely with you. I think mares can take that to whole nother level. They all have this inherent sort of mothering-ness that they will take care of you right back.

Barbara O’Brien: 39:59

And self-preservation, like you know, if I'm going to preserve myself, I'll preserve you as well, if you have the relationship. I think that's why I have six mares and one gelding. It's probably. Wonderful, All right. Another thing that you write about is spooking, and spooking is when a horse gets startled for an audience that doesn't know. So, you might be riding along, and something catches his attention. You know, a bird flies up a deer, a car back, something loud, something happens that the horse doesn't understand, and he reacts. So, he can react with a big buck and run and jump, or he can just stand, stock still and take it in. Lots of ways to spook. How do we help a horse work through spook so he doesn't get hurt and you don't get hurt?

Ingrid Henry: 40:41
I think I don't mean this to sound as a cop-out, but I think the ideal is to try to avoid in the first place to not set them over threshold, to give them confidence in their time with you whatever it's looking like. Ideally, the more of that you have before a spook happens, the better, but they are prey animals, right? Anything can happen at any time. So, I think it's important for us to be aware of our own emotional state and, if we get startled, to bring ourselves back down as soon as possible, take a nice deep breath, let it out. In my, in the research that I've done on trauma, I've read that animals will often shake their whole body to release a stressor, even like deer that have just been chased but gotten away from a predator or something, and I think that that sort of shake it off is something that people are not naturally not naturally maybe it's not natural, but we're often not good at and I think if we're able to let it go quickly, we can model that for our horses. So, when I took my filly to her first horse show recently, there were all these people around the arena, you know, talking, and there were horses calling. There were lots of distractions.

Barbara O’Brien: 41:57

Sure.

Ingrid Henry: 41:58

And I just spent the entire ride just taking these deep exhaling type breaths while we're riding around. So, she knew that I was relaxed about all of it. Oh, this is just a person. Oh, that's just a horse. And the only spook that I had in the whole two rides that I did was she was trotting across the diagonal, and she walked. That's all it was she didn't even stop. She just was like whoa, what's that? I'm going to look and slow down and take a closer look, you know, and she didn't even turn all that much. But there was a person standing behind the judge's table and that hadn't been there, and she just had to look at it a moment and I think that's because partly of the energy I was bringing to the encounter and partly all of the work we'd done previously. That said, I was out on the trail with her and there was a deer and the deer took off running and my horse was definitely very spooked it was probably the biggest spook she's had and she took a couple of strides of canter and I did what you do in that situation, right, like take up the reins, try to stop the animal. And then I released the reins because I didn't want her to feel continually trapped. She was slowing down. I'm like, okay, you're good, you're you're good, I'm good, we're all good. We took some deep breaths, and I pet her neck and actually I dismounted because I we had had five or six little triggers that had happened that day before the deer and I'm like, with all those things, if something else happens, there's going to be an even bigger spook. Let's just walk in hand the rest of the way, have a good experience, stay safe, calm down, and she was great. Some animals would have really held onto that tension and are more challenging with spooks. So, if your horse is the kind that can take a fearful moment and calm quickly, ideally that's the goal. If they're not, which a lot of horses aren't. My previous mare Kaleidoscope would have held on to that fear for quite a long time. It's still important for us not to be triggered by their fear.

Barbara O’Brien: 44:01
Oh yeah.

Ingrid Henry: 44:02
To take the emotional control ourselves. Take the deep breaths. Um, if you can almost maybe this sounds crazy, but almost meditate, um, you don't want to lose all awareness of the horse because they may have lost awareness of you. If they're sufficiently scared, they may be a threat to you. So, you have to be careful. But I would say get back to a safe zone. If that means dismounting, going to a slower gate, you know it depends on your threshold and the horses but try to get back to a safer zone as quickly as possible as you can so that both of you can calm down and reset. And I'm not opposed to, you know, starting again. I think sometimes horses also are more likely to spook if they have a physical issue, if they are in pain in any way or uncomfortable. So be aware of that as well. If it becomes a frequent problem, it's possible that there's something, and I think this adaptively makes sense. If they're feeling a little sore, like maybe they can't safely run away from a threat, they might be more likely to startle, you know, or try to avoid a scary situation. I think spooking is really challenging, but I think a lot of it comes to how much we're capable of controlling ourselves.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:32

I think, I agree um the breathing, calming yourself, waiting for them to calm themselves, resetting, um, not forcing them past something spooky, let them. Let them reset, go back where you need to go back and you start over if you need to, things like that. That's all really good advice. And not being ashamed to get off. There's no shame in like being safe. Sometimes our ego like we can't see them, or they think the horse is, you know, taking advantage of us. No, you're just helping your horse, help you and help himself.

Ingrid Henry: 46:03
And it depends on the horse, but sometimes you can actually use their curiosity to to help, I know some people don't recommend letting them look at the scary object, but if they are a naturally curious horse, sometimes I've found that that can actually help. If they, you know, see something that startles them and and you both are able to regulate down a little bit, it might actually make sense to go over and take a closer look.

Barbara O’Brien: 46:23
Oh, for sure.

Ingrid Henry: 46:26
Because curiosity is a great counterpoint to fear. Well, yeah not all horses, some of them. If you do that, they'll be like oh, my fear is reinforced. You're looking at it too. So, it does depend on the horse. What's going to work best it's hard to give a blanket answer.

Barbara O’Brien: 46:44
When I'm building attunement with a horse and working with a horse, building relationship. If he looks at something in the distance, he puts his head up and he looks and he's alert, maybe not necessarily over threshold, but definitely interested. I take Warwick Schiller's advice and just look where he's looking, like oh, I see it too. Oh gosh, there's a half mile away, there's a car going down the road. I see it. Okay, you know like that. And then the horse goes, oh, okay. See, so you saw, at least you I'm aware of what he was looking at, which made him feel safer, because the watcher herd horse, someone like Rita is like, don't you see it? I mean we should all be concerned, you know. And so if I just go oh, you know, that's just a, that's just a combine, two fields away, nothing to worry about I can see her physically, you know, physically go, oh okay, but she kind of needs that reinforcement from me.

Ingrid Henry: 47:33
Yeah, yeah, they need to know that you are aware too.

Barbara O’Brien: 47:36

Exactly.

Ingrid Henry: 47:37
And if you can see something and then dismiss it, be like oh yeah, I see that, but I'm not worried about it. And even saying that's just a fill in the blank, I think that helps. I think the horses hear that tone and that attitude and you know what it is, even if they don't know that word. Right, you know what it is and you're not worried that does reassure them.

Barbara O’Brien: 47:59
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I don't know how I'd feel if I saw a bear.

Ingrid Henry: 48:04
Well, they're unlikely to eat a horse.

Barbara O’Brien: 48:07
True, true, true. No, I know, I'm just, I'm just joking, but it's like you know things, that things that I can look at and go, yeah, it's fine, you know.

Ingrid Henry: 48:13

Not everything is going to be a not worried about but, but if you are able to have that thought, even I think it would still help. Oh, that's a bear, but it's over there. We're going to go this way.

Barbara O’Brien: 48:24
We're not going to bother the bear. At least in Wisconsin we have these nice black bears and not like grizzlies out West. Black bear just assume not see you and you know, move away. So not a problem, yeah, okay. Well, this has been really interesting. We could do so many more of these because you've just a font of information and good stuff for our listeners. But we're to the part of the show which we call the questions, and what I had done when I sent you the intake form about the podcast is send you a list of questions that we stole from Tim Ferriss's book, Tribe of Mentors. It's just, these are just great interview questions, and so we like doing this on the show. We we sent you 20 questions. You had the opportunity to pick five of those questions that you wanted to answer, so I'm just going to ask away, okay.

Ingrid Henry: 49: 09

All right.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:10
All right. What has been your biggest failure and how has it helped you?

Ingrid Henry: 49:15
So this one I've already talked about this was that um experience as a young assistant trainer where my horse bucked me off and I think, looking back on it, one could say the failure was the falling. But I disagree. The failure was not listening to my intuition.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:32
Sure.

Ingrid Henry: 49:33
And how did it help me? Well, I'm never going to do that again. If I feel unsafe on a horse, I'm going to get down. I'm going to bring it back to a level where everyone feels safe. I think life is too short and horses are too potentially dangerous to just push past.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:50
I think that's really good advice. The next one is if you could send a message to the world, what would that be? Or do you have a favorite quote, and why?

Ingrid Henry: 50:01
Can I answer both of those?

Barbara O’Brien: 50:03

Of course.

Ingrid Henry: 50:04
Okay, all right, great. I think my message to the world is that we should always be open to learning. I think it's easy for people to feel like we have it figured out, like we've learned what we're going to learn. We know what we know, and I think it's really important to dive deeper. What more can you learn about who you are, how you feel, how you think, what's your intuition? I really think it's helpful for people to figure out the voices in our head and learn to differentiate them. What is your fear talking? What is your intuition? What's the voice of rational thinking and reason, and can you tell which one's talking to you at what time? It really helps you to figure out the way forward to navigate life's challenges.

Barbara O’Brien: 50:53
Oh, that's very good advice.

Ingrid Henry: 50:54
I think it also helps you to differentiate between your own perspective and that of like your horses or another person's. If you know what voice is talking to you in your head.

Barbara O’Brien: 51:04
Right and your favorite quote.

Ingrid Henry: 51:06
My favorite quote is Marianne Williamson. She said, “love is what we are, both, what we are born with. Fear is what we learn.The spiritual journey is the unlearning of fear and prejudices and the acceptance of love back in our hearts. Love is the essential reality and our purpose on earth. To be consciously aware of it, to experience love in ourselves and others is the meaning of life. Meaning does not lie in things. Meaning lies in us.”

Barbara O’Brien: 51:40
That is a lovely quote and so true, that's great. All right, um, what is the worst advice given in your profession or bad idea that you hear of in your field of expertise?

Ingrid Henry: 51:54
I think, for me, just the thing that comes to me today is the practice of desensitizing, in which people flood horses and training with all sorts of things. I'm absolutely not opposed to exposing them to umbrellas, tarps, flags, whatever you want, but I think instead of overwhelming them and creating a shutdown horse who feels that they can't move or a state of learned helplessness. I think it's more important to build that curiosity, like I mentioned earlier, introduce them to things and allow them the chance to approach, to explore it, to learn to have confidence in themselves, in their handler and in their world. As a result, my horse is one of the bravest, most sensible young horses I know. And I think it really helps with any horse if you can develop their confidence with objects and experiences like the wash stall and trailer loading and all of that, rather than overwhelming them by just doing it. You know if you can take it in baby steps. Give them confidence.

Barbara O’Brien: 53:14
I agree. What is your relationship with fear?

Ingrid Henry: 53:16
For the longest time I tried to avoid it. I hate being afraid. Even as a kid I was not an adventurous child. I did do a little cross country jumping, but I was not the like, bold, let's do it type of kid. But now I know you can't avoid it, especially if you're a very highly sensitive person or a horse person. And I'm both, so I've learned instead to acknowledge it, to take it into consideration, to thank it for its feedback. I think you have to acknowledge it and be like yes, I see you, I know why you're afraid, and then, if necessary, modify my actions and my choices to keep me safe. So, like I said, there are ways to change your level of risk, and I certainly do that when it makes sense to, and I think fear needn't hold you back, but it is important and it can actually keep you safe if you listen to it without letting it run your life.

Barbara O’Brien: 54:15
Exactly All right. And then, what quality do you admire most in people?


Ingrid Henry: 54:23
At first, I considered answering this with the quality of empathy, and, while I certainly appreciate others' compassion and understanding for others, I think I value honesty as much or more, and I don't mean necessarily bluntness, but it takes a lot of courage to be fully authentic and honest with others.

Barbara O’Brien: 54:47
Indeed, yeah, I'm sorry.

Ingrid Henry: 54:48

Go ahead.

Barbara O’Brien: 54:49
With horses, you can't be any other way. You have to be honest, go ahead and finish your thoughts, sorry.

Ingrid Henry: 54:56
No, yeah, they, absolutely. They ask us to be authentic, right, to be congruent, like you said earlier, and especially when you have a lot of kindness and care for others and don't wish to hurt their feelings, being able to be gently honest with others is such a powerful thing.

Barbara O’Brien: 55:17
Oh, absolutely when I was working with the young people having to learn boundaries, because you just want to take on everything and you want to fix everything and you can't, you know. So that was. I understand that what you're saying, the empathy is good, but also being honest about what's possible and what. What you can do, you know, and what you can't do. And like, people's journeys are their own, you know. So.

Ingrid Henry: 55:42
I truly believe that gentle honesty, with enough empathy to soften, it, is better for healthy relationships than even the most well-intentioned dishonesty. To keep the peace.

Barbara O’Brien: 55:53
Yeah, for sure, yeah, passive aggressive not great.

Ingrid Henry: 55:57
Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 55:59
Just to tell them how you feel.

Ingrid Henry: 56:00
You know it's scary too. It's hard to just to tell them how you feel.


Barbara O’Brien: 56:04
Right right.

Ingrid Henry: 56:05
But I'm a fan of honesty.

Barbara O’Brien: 56:07
There you go. This is great. Well, I tell you we've had a really wonderful hour with you. So, for people who want to find you, communicate with you, if they're in the area, work with you, are you going to do? Do you do clinics in the future, or there's other projects you want to talk about that you're working on. Just just give us all your self-promotion. It will make sure that we get all the links you send us and things that all go up on the show notes and on the Web site and everything. But let's hear it from you how do we find you?

Ingrid Henry: 56:35
Yeah, well, probably the easiest way is I have a Facebook page called Harmonious Equestrian Connection, and I post there, but I'm also happy to respond to individual messages and talk with people. I do work with people virtually as well.

Barbara O’Brien: 56:51
Oh, that's great.

Ingrid Henry: 56:52
They need to be local here to the Twin Cities area of Minnesota. I would love to do that in person if they are local, but if not, I do a lot of coaching over the phone or through Zoom as well, so it can either be a virtual lesson of sorts or even just talking about your relationship with your horse and your challenges, and I can give you ideas and suggestions of how to work through things.

Barbara O’Brien: 57:15
That's wonderful.

Ingrid Henry: 57:17
I would love to do clinics as well. I haven't yet, but I do travel to some barns that are a little further away and kind of do once one day, once a month. So, I really tailor what I offer to what the individual needs. It can be everything from I have one client who is three times a week to, like I said, once a month, just depending on what the needs are of the horse handler and the horse needs are of the horse handler and the horse.

Barbara O’Brien: 57:44
Oh, I agree, that's wonderful. I appreciate that. Okay, well, we'll make sure to get these connections on the notes so people can find you if need be, and also links, of course, to your podcast, because I think you have so much to offer and your guests have so much to offer, and isn't it wonderful, we live in a world now where the knowledge is right there in front of us and so many people can share good stuff.

Ingrid Henry: 58:05
Yeah, I love learning from all the people out there from all over the world who are also promoting this sort of thing, this this kindness and empathy towards horses and and other animals and people.

Barbara O’Brien: 58:17
I think I do believe we're on the forefront of a shift. There seems to be a forefront of a shift in how we're thinking about horses, more and more. People like you and Lockie Phillips and Warwick Schiller and you know a lot of the guests that we've had on our show Kerri Lake and Mary Corning I could go on and on Dr Susan Fay are all part like the vanguard of a new relationship and understanding with horses, which can only benefit horses and people in the dog world. I think it's been going on for a while. They're getting away from these aversive methods of training that are quite harmful to a dog, the dog's psychology as well. Horses is taking a little longer. The cultural shift is taking a little longer, but it's a start and more and more people that are listening and doing their best to not get their horses to a state of shutdown or a state of sheer panic or you know not or ways that can harm a horse in the long run, not even just physically, but emotionally caring about it. This is so huge, and so we're grateful there's people like you, voices like you out there, your willingness to help other people, and we thank you very much for being on the podcast today.

Ingrid Henry: 59:23
Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, I just wanted to say, too, my my podcast, my latest season, is about harmony with horses, so I've been interviewing people who are professionals in some sort of horse field, whether it's horse massage or chiropractic, or a horse trainer or whatever it is they do with horses, getting their perspective on. I even interviewed a dressage judge but, getting their perspective on how can we develop more harmony with horses. As you mentioned, dressage has been in the news for some unsavory things and the abuses and the dark side of it, and I wanted to talk about what we can do better. What are we aiming for, what does harmony with the horse look like and how do we get there? So I'm excited to interview more people as part of that too, and and share their stories and their ideas. I just think there's, like you said, it's, a wonderful movement and I'm so glad to be a part of it.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:00:19
Absolutely, absolutely so. The horses thank you and I thank you, and I'm sure the audience will be glad to have listened to the podcast. So, thank you again, Ingrid.

Ingrid Henry: 1:00:28
Thanks for having me.

(Music): 1:00:34