Julie Smart - What Horses Want - Trust, Communication and Leadership

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Barbara O’Brien: 0:14
Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer and I'd like to welcome you to The Empathetic Trainer.

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Barbara O’Brien: 0:29
Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien and you're listening to The Empathetic Trainer podcast. Today's guest is Julie Smart. Julie has been training horses for most of her life. Her first job was at her mother and aunt's riding school, and she worked in the New Zealand racing scene in her 20s.  At age 40, she injured her back and was told she may never ride again. So, she bought a mare and foal to explore groundwork and to motivate her healing. It was then she discovered non-English traditional horsemanship, and it changed her life. Well, that's a whole podcast in itself. We definitely want to hear some of that and what that all means. But let's start at the beginning. Let's start about when you were little and your first exposure to horses. I'm a crazy horse lady now, so maybe you're the same, but let's start there. What was it like for you when you were young?

Julie Smart: 1:19
Yeah, sure. Well, I was born in London and was born completely under the spell of horses, as many of us are. I drew and read and dreamed about horses and I was extremely lucky that my mother fostered my interests and I got to go to a riding school once a week in South London called Willow Tree Riding Stables. And then, when I was nine, the best thing happened and we immigrated to New Zealand and over here, of course, no, it was quite a different scene. Over here, I got to meet horses that had were not prepared for you to get on and ride. It wasn't riding lessons; it was life with horses. So, it was quite different and um, and that was fantastic, my first um, um trekking experiences. Here there's a lady. We didn't have riding lessons. You would just go um and spend a day with this lady on her farm and and her name was Rona Fraser and um and she, she would eye you up and match you up with a pony and you had to go and find that pony and catch it and put the halter on and bring them in and groom them and do their feet and tack them up yourself, and I've never done any of that stuff. So, so I learned an awful lot about horses from her, which is fantastic. Um, I owned horses from the age of 13. My mum and my aunt ran a riding school and, and, um, it didn't go for very long, it was only for three years, but that was a big part of my teen years and, yeah, then I was in the racing industry and that was everything from. It was a stud farm initially, and so it was breeding, weaning, foaling, handling young foals, teaching them to lead halter training them that sort of thing pre-track training, yearling preparation, preparation for sales, and then track training and and.

Barbara O’Brien: 3:08

And track, so for our, for other people that aren't um British or New Zealand. Tracking means?

Julie Smart: 3:15

Oh, as a track rider, meaning you ride the horse on the racetrack, so so, so yeah, yeah training the horses to be racehorses, basically on the on the racetrack. So, a track rider is someone who does that and that was one of the things I did, and I learned an awful lot there. But it was very. Of course it's an industry no, it's an industry and it was very sort of factory. There's one after the other, there's things that will happen in a row and not much time for the horses themselves, and I got a lot of horse experience. But I also shattered a lot of dreams as well, because when I was a little girl, I was reading books like the Black Stallion, and I wanted to be the boy who was galloping down the beach with his black stallion. You know, bridle-less before bridle-less was a word you know, and I always felt there was more to the connection than just hairy bicycles, you know. Horses aren't sports equipment. And it took me yeah, I learned that through the racing industry that there's only so much of that. You can know it's so interesting. Back in those days we had no internet, we had no way of realizing that there were people out there proving the impossible. Every day you learned from the people who are closest to you, and it was convenience and tradition and that's what carried it all through. I learned a lot of good things, you know, but there was a lot that was missing as well. And then, yeah, when I hurt my back, it was truly one of those lucky breaks, if you like, because I didn't know anything about groundwork apart from lunging and a little bit of long lining. And so I thought, well, I'll get this mare and foal and find out what is possible. And someone asked me had I heard of the Pearly Seven Games? And I hadn't, and so I bought the book, and so I used that to sort of get some different techniques on the ground. And that just sort of coincided with the beginning of the very slow dial-up internet and DVDs. Now, before that was all videotapes, if you were lucky, you know. So. Um, so I I was able to learn remotely, because here in New Zealand everything was very traditional. There weren't many people doing anything outside the square. Uh, when I was about 40 yeah, it was when I had that mare and foal um, I was working with the mare, and I took her to a clinic with a man called Russell Higgins and he has been my mentor ever since. He is an incredible horseman. He's a New Zealander.

Barbara O’Brien: 5:52
I'm sorry, let's see if we can talk about him just a little bit. His name is?

Julie Smart: 5:55
Yeah, Russell Higgins. Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 5:58
With a W?

Julie Smart: 6:01
No doubles. No Ws. Russell Higgins, Higgins.

Barbara O’Brien: 6:04

Higgins, okay. sorry.

Julie Smart: 6:05
Higgins with an H. Yeah, Sorry, I speak fast, and I've got an accent. Sorry about that.

Barbara O’Brien: 6:09
It's okay, it's wonderful. So. Russell Higgins, and is he still around?

Julie Smart: 6:13
Oh, yes, absolutely. I learn from him every year and for the past 10 years I've been organizing clinics for him in our area as well. He also travels internationally. He traditionally would spend probably three quarters of the year going around travelling around the world teaching. He's spending more time at home now and teaching more local students, which has been a very, very recent change, but I don't think there's many countries he hasn't been to. I honestly wouldn't know how many he. He teaches in some really, really interesting places.

Barbara O’Brien: 6:49
You started working with him. What, uh, what was the revelation that you had? What did you learn from him, or continue to, learn.

Julie Smart: 6:54
Well, um it was. It was a continuation of of. Um, I mean really the. The biggest effect and this won't be a popular thing, but the biggest effect on my life was when I first discovered Pirelli, and he was a Pirelli professional at that time. If I think about all my top mentors, the people I absolutely love learning from today Andrea Wady, Elsa Sinclair, Warwick obviously.

Barbara O’Brien: 7:21
Warwick Schiller, for those who aren't familiar.

Julie Smart: 7:25
Yeah, but if I think of and Russell, you know three of those four people all came through the Pirelli system. They actually learned a lot and while it's very popular to sort of denigrate certain things, I learned so much from them. I really, really did, and a lot of it was the actual psychology of horses and about the, the bones of operant conditioning and behaviorism. Before I knew that operant conditioning was, was a thing and um that they first taught me about positive reinforcement. You know how to motivate a horse that doesn't want to go. You know use food. And while they didn't have the science and the proper terms for everything, they made legitimized, not a common sense. If you have the thought to get off the horse when you're scared for itself, well, get off the horse. That's the right thing to do. If that thought crosses your mind and uh, yeah, so, so, um, those.

Barbara O’Brien: 8:31

No, there's definitely been a shift and a growth from uh, with the kind of matches, the growth of the internet, because information started to get out there more and more yeah, you know, and now there's so much um, there's conflicting information, but there seems to be a real trend in the horse world to use what Warwick Schiller calls attunement to getting to understand why your horse is doing what it's doing, why it's thinking, you know, and then how to communicate better, in that you understand. Same things happening with people in the world of trauma and understanding that everyone has had, you know, different traumas, different levels, but it's still there and it's all things to be worked through. You know, and we saw this revolution in dog training. It started a little faster than with the horses, it's been around a little longer, but as I'm I don't know if you know, Julie, but I'm an animal actor trainer, so I train animal actors and I can’t imagine training them without food, because it's like that was part of the motivation to make the game really, really fun. Because, yes, of course you can make a dog behave, I suppose, and they do work off of praise and that's nice. But how much more fun to get a yummy piece of turkey, you know. So, I mean you can. And treat training with horses can work really, really well too, no doubt. Especially, we were talking about Morgan horses, and I think they're the most food motivated horses in the world. So, if your timing is correct and you have the timing and you can do all this, you know, and you don't create a monster, well then good on you. You know so, but but you imagine, nobody would have, even years ago, at least when I was growing up. That was ridiculous.  You wouldn't think I'm going to give them. I'm going to shape a behavior. I'm going to shape a behavior. I'm going to shape a behavior and reward it with something yummy, you know, and and we'll just rewarding horses at all. You know, growing up I grew up very much like you, or I had this older woman that had a farm, and she would, I'd work Saturday mornings, do chores, and work and do things to earn hours so that I could ride all afternoon, you know. So, I didn't have to pay for my riding lessons. So, it was the best thing is A, you learned how to work hard, but B, we did complete and total freedom, which also means we had no guidance. You know, jumped on those four horses, and just rode all over and they were so forgiving. You know, those horses if you think about it. What, what, uh, you know? Um, so, yeah, horses are amazing animals, but now, as a horse person, I'm trying to do better all the time, understanding them better so I can do better, and I think there's a great desire among people to do better with horses, dogs, cats, everything you know, children, I hope.

Julie Smart: 10:57

Yeah, definitely.

Barbara O’Brien: 11:00
So, um, then you had this, mare and foal, and how did that help with your healing? Then with your back, I mean, you know your life changing.

Julie Smart: 11:09
Well, first of all, I hadn't realized up until then those dream horses I used to read about and the relationships I've dreamed about and the things I would try to do, like riding my halter with a lead rope when I had no idea how to actually use those tools to control any sort of situation, really. That mare and foal, coinciding with learning about the groundwork, revealed to me what horses were really like. I realized that I didn't actually know my horses. I said I loved horses, but I didn't love the horses. I loved the idea of the horses and this picture that I had in my head of everything that horses meant to me. And when, of course, when you're younger, it's all tied up with ego as well. You know freedom for being female. You know strength. Horses are a great equalizer. You know if I'm on a horse I'm equal to anybody. You know and and um, and so in my teen years I got a lot of my strength from from having a horse and um, but. But the thing is it was everything that those horses could do for me. When I realized this mare and foal, I started doing the groundwork and right at the very beginning of their program which is the beginning of every good program was um spending undemanding time actually getting to know the animal being there without actually asking them to do anything. You know, and anything that's any good, I think, kind of starts from there. And when I did that.

Barbara O’Brien: 12:34

So undemanding time. I'm just going to repeat these concepts for people.

Julie Smart: 12:40
Please do.

Barbara O’Brien: 12:41

Because you're like me. We get excited and we talk fast, I'm going to help our audience out.

Julie Smart: 12:46
Thank you.

Barbara O’Brien: 12:47

Undemanding time. From what I understand and what you're saying is and Warwick Schiller, who I really follow quite a bit you go out and don't ask for anything. It doesn't have to be transactional. That's what you're saying, correct?

Julie Smart: 13:01
Exactly. Yeah, the only thing that you're really asking for is feedback, so the horses don't have to give you anything, they've just got to be themselves. And what's the best thing about that sort of work, Barbara, is that it really hones our own. You were talking before about timing, with positive reinforcement, and, of course, timing with any horsemanship is absolutely crucial. And I think that the undemanding time when you're looking at horses and you're looking for feedback, and then if you take an Elsa Sinclair, take on it and think, right, how could I make them feel a little bit better? You know, if you see the horse is a wee bit tense, doesn't like you being there you can walk around, get a bit of rhythm and you can see how that affects them. And the timing of when you do that is vital. So, what it does is it increases your feel, because to me, I think feel is really defined by paying attention. There's a great saying which I heard from Russell, and I don't know where he got it from, but focus gives you feel. Focus and feel give you timing. Focus, feel and timing give you balance.

Barbara O’Brien: 13:58
Okay, that's wonderful. I want you just to repeat that nice and slow. Start over again. That was wonderful so focus gives you feeling.

Julie Smart: 14:07
Focus gives you feel, focus and feel give you timing, focus, feel and timing give you balance.

Barbara O’Brien: 14:15
Oh, I love it. Okay.

Julie Smart: 14:17
And it starts with the focus, with paying attention, our focus. And it's not like going up there and staring at the horse you do not want to do that but paying attention in the way the horse does. How do they react to each other? You know if they're orienting in the same direction as each other. Do they stand perpendicular to each other and stare at each other? They don't. You know, you try and get two horses to approach each other nose to nose when you're riding, and you soon realize how difficult they find that. You know it's quite a confrontational thing to have the two eyes, you know, and, um, yeah, so right, so so, yeah, just all those things that sort of yeah, they're undermining time. I think it's just such a powerful. There's so much value. Doing nothing is not doing nothing, it's definitely doing something.

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Barbara O’Brien: 15:02

Right. Okay, so that would be the first step undemanding time, and then yeah, what happens after that?

Julie Smart: 15:06
Um, well, that was when the vowel dropped, and I realized that my horses were just like my dogs. They're people, that they have opinions. And when I started giving them opinions no, it was okay for them to be far away. If they wanted to, or if they wanted to come and talk to me, that was okay as well. Um, the next thing that tended to well, what arose with with my mare and foal anyway was when they realized they were allowed opinions. They, um, they started telling me their opinions and they had some rather interesting opinions about their life experiences up until then, you know, and and uh, and they let me know, know if this was okay or if that was not okay. I mean, I'll use my latest horse as an example. Um, he's an ex-endurance Arabian and he's 10 years old and he did four years working in the endurance racing scene and professionally, with sort of high level. Um, you know, our, our good people and competitive, I mean. And when I bought him, I could see that he'd been very well treated. He liked the man that he belonged to very much. I could tell that. And the man said to me oh, he's great, he's my favourite horse to ride, and I can see why I agree with him. But he also said he's great for everything. He's really good to tack up and to groom and everything else. Well, when I gave that horse some opinions, he told me very clearly that he did not want to be tied up, he did not want to be groomed and he did not want to be saddled. And so, you know this, and it feels like, oh, I've created a monster. Now my horse won't do anything.

Barbara O’Brien: 16:43
Right, right, yeah, if you had a choice, right, yeah.

Julie Smart: 16:46

Yeah, but, but, but, yeah, its consent, you know. And so, you learn how to. Um, I've learned. It started with that mare and foal, with just little things, but with him it just took. I'm just having such a fantastic time teaching him that it's okay to be saddled and and teaching him that actually he might want to be saddled and and teaching him that actually he might want to be saddled and and. So, we've got an agreement I never put a saddle on him unless he's at liberty and he's out in the paddock and I stand there and I hold his saddle pad up and he comes charging over. He does everything with great emphasis, gives me his back and put the saddle blanket on his back and and um. It started off with the attunement and with the cat h and that sort of thing, but. But as soon as the horse goes through that stages, you know to start off, they're worried about something. They say no, no, no, and you back away and you let them have that no. Then when they start trusting that that you are reliable and they can tell you something and you're going to respond to it, they start expecting you to respond in a way that they appreciate and then you can stretch the moment. They say no. You say are you sure? And they go, oh, okay, I'll relax now. Great, then you retreat again, you don't go forward, you retreat again. Then when they get curious, when that horse comes up to you and starts nudging that saddle blanket, no, that's when you can do your training. And to me there's a very distinct difference between taming and training. Taming, to me, is the befriending and building the trust and the connection and all that sort of thing, the things that horses have with each other. The training, this is the operant conditioning, and you can use positive or negative reinforcement. No, ethically no and um, and for me with that particular horse, because I was counter conditioning how he's feeling about the saddle and the saddle blanket. He got a click and a treat and and so that developed huge motivation and enthusiasm and of course he's gone from a horse that would argue and obviously upset no biting and stomping his feet and flashing his ears and everything to to someone that canters to me to get his saddle on, you know. So, he still has a bit of sass about it. You know it's done, he he'll come, and he'll toss his head. It's almost like, oh, if you must, you know, and once again that's another little level, that that you have to check it back with and say are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure you know and it's an ongoing conversation, it it's yeah, it's really good and it never stops, never stops. No, you're always working on that consent, so I forgot what the original question was.

Barbara O’Brien: 19:14

No, no, no, no, that was that, was it.  That's really really wonderful. Yeah, my earlier podcast guests will know that a couple of year and a half ago now. I've got three horses, three Morgan mares foundation working Western Morgan mares. So, they're the small, compact, old style Morgan mares fillies from out West, out in Montana. So it's very, very vast and it's mountains and mountain range and plains, and so they had a very, very large, you know really considerably large pasture and there was like 60 in the herd that were together the mares and foals all the time. And so, the two yearling fillies came completely open-minded, like blank slates. They had not been mishandled because they'd had, you know, enough care, you know, through their lives, but not handled, certainly not handled right, I mean. But no bad experiences, you know, with humans. Humans were fine, okay, and they're like sponges and they're adorable, and I just they're coming three years old now and I mean they're just a blast right, they learn, they play, they got sass, but you know I've had them like blank slates, they've only had good things. Um, the other mare, that's five coming five. Um, for a short time, the breeder had a trainer. That wasn't because they had so many horses, he didn't, he wasn't aware, but he had a trainer who the breeder said in his laconic Western way, the trainer fancied himself a roper and I never really understood, like, what that meant. But I have these visions of these. You know, was he roping these horses and knocking him down? Or you know what was he doing? He got fired as soon as he was found out. But the third mare, the oldest mare, Rita, came with such a fear of confinement, a fear of any enclosed space, a fear of any type of rope, any type of lead, you know, and um it just, uh, this is when I was just, you know, starting to understand attunement, starting to follow Warwick Schiller and the others, trying to grasp what was going on. And I never. I learned to what you're talking about. First of all, that undemanding time, so the whole first winter, because she would turn her back end like threatening to kick. You know, I mean she did, she would double barrel. You know it was going to happen if you got too close. There was like so much nervous and worry about her. I had to learn. She needed to be able to see the horizon and see the world around her. Like a barn was too frightening because she couldn't see what was coming. And on the prairie, she had to see what was coming. You know, it could be a coyote, it could be this, could be that. I learned that it took a long time for her to understand that the ropes weren't a rope, a halter. None of that was going to hurt her. You know that it took time for her to be safe, but I took the time it took, you know, giving up that expectation, and a breakthrough happened within a few months. I remember I'd work with her through the fence on her body because then I could be protected contact without getting hurt, and she chose then she chose to stand by me instead of. You know, she could go as she pleased. Um, and I would. Um, there's apparently a nerve or, um, some right under their jawline, and she loved it when I would just stroke her, and she still does. You know, along here if you imagine a horse's jawline and holding her like this and she breathing we're always taught keep those horses faces away from you, you know get out of my space. Get out of my space. Get out of my space, right, but learning to trust interaction. By watching their body language you can tell if they're going to bite you. If you have any sense at all, you can tell they're.
You know. So, watching body language and keeping your hands like a catcher's mitt, you're not gonna going to hear. She smelled me from head to toe and it was the most wonderful feeling of peace, like this breakthrough of like. You know, yes, it's going to take more time. I'm sure I've got to pick up her feet the next day. You know things like that. It's, it's going to take. It took time, but I feel like that horse would climb a tree for me. Now I feel like, you know, and she's, we haven't trained her for saddle because she's just coming five and I really want her bones to grow, you know. So, this would be a introduction year, but not a riding year, cause um, but. But now it's like she runs over and she's like scratch my butt. You know that back end that I was so afraid of. You know she's like please, I love, that's my favorite. Uh, that breakthrough, that's so possible if you take the time. You know, just, it's all about time. So, yeah, we get blessed with easy, easy horses, but sometimes we get horses that are teaching us something and this horse has taught me patience.

Julie Smart: 23:40

Yeah, that's amazing. Oh, good for you. That's just so lovely.

Barbara O’Brien: 23:43
So, I understand what you're saying about your guy teaching you you know um that he had an opinion.

Julie Smart: 23:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I knew that he would have, but, but, um, but, and of course he's. He still turned up 18 years after other horses and told me that as well, but but he was just a really, really good expressive example because, like, no, so, but that protected contact, I mean, that's so important um for scared horses, because and aggressive horses, you know, but, and because, um, we're safe, but so are they, you know, like, like you said, she can leave, she could go any any. No, she, she only interacted with you if she wanted to. And um, I've, um, I've used that as well. Um, generally speaking, I've worked with a number of wild horses and my preferred way of doing it is is through um, through consent, with as much space as possible, you know, and what basically happened is um. In 2012, one of our local rescues picked up 21 wild horses that were going to be sent to slaughter and they needed volunteers to help work with them. And, of course, there's not that many people that have the time and the skills. I didn't have the skills all the time, but there were four of us who were pretty determined that we were going to help these horses, and two of us initially it was myself and my friend Philippa were the initial handlers. My friend Andrea took care of the day-to-day routine things and our friend Sam had organized it all, made it all happen, did all the fundraising, and she also became one of the trainers as well. And what I noticed from that experience with those wild horses 21 wild horses, mares, yearlings and foals most of the mares are pregnant as well and, yeah, we had a timeline.  We, know, none of us actually asked to do it. We were asked to do it and then we felt that we had to, and, and, and, of course, we wanted to help these horses. It was an amazing journey, so, so emotional on many, many levels, but um the the wild ones there to start with, because we didn't know what we were doing. We tried different things because we had enough of them, and we started with the easiest ones. You know the foals the ones which already had homes waiting. No one wanted the mares, but everyone wanted the young ones, because they were beautiful young horses, you know so. So, um sure so yeah, and so the the most common way of starting wild horses here what was then, anyway, is um, you get them in a yard, you get a long stick, you touch them with the stick, you know, use, approach and retreat until they become acclimatized to that. So, you work your way up until you can get no, get a rope on. Quite often, I mean, some people will do things like put halters and ropes on them and turn them out to get used to it, which is a a terrible idea. I would never do that. But what I realized with these wild horses just being in the yard they were way over threshold, and I knew about thresholds already back then, because of Pirelli. Basically, they had been catching that years before. You know that on the threshold is a term that they coined, and so, um, so, so. So I tried a round pen that gave more room, and there was me, standing in the middle of this round pen with this colt galloping around and around and around, absolutely terrified realizing that I'd made a mistake. You know, um, he was too frightened. No, just me being there, being on the other side of the fence, made a big difference to those horses, not as big a difference as if they're on the other side of the fence and they can actually avoid you, if they can, you know. And so, what I realized what happens. We went with all the young ones, and we were getting it done. You know that that it was okay, but, um, but it was coming towards winter and the mares still hadn't been touched, and so so, um, we, we got one of the mares and put her on a stock truck and we brought her down to my house so I could work with her here. And I haven't got. I didn't have a small yard in those days, and um, but what was really interesting, when the truck arrived, and they lowered the ramp. Andrea, who'd been doing all the daily things, no, and hadn't actually been involved hands-on with the horses, that much training as such. Ginger froze, she stood in the back of that horse truck, and she just couldn't move. Everything was completely different once again. She had lost all of her friends, all of her family, that mare right, um, she loved the foals, you know, and she'd been separated from the foals. She'd lost her own foal at the facility when she first, about two weeks after she first arrived, you know. So, she'd been through a lot and there she was, standing there, isolated from everyone else. Again, she saw Andrea. We were trying to think how we're going to get her off. No, we just had to wait until she comes down. She saw Andrea walk out and she saw Andrea. She locked onto her, she followed her, and I thought, wow, look at that. And so to get her from where we had to unload into what I call my welcome paddock, she actually had to go through another paddock, quite close up to an overhanging sort of hedge, and through a narrow gate and into the paddock, and she just followed.

Barbara O’Brien: 28:50
Things that require a lot of trust a lot of trust for a wild horse.

Julie Smart: 28:55
Yeah, yeah, horse, yeah and I mean, no one had been within about 30 meters of this horse with her consent, to that point, you know. And so, the fact that she followed Andrea through she wasn't super close, she wasn't, no, but she followed her, and she trusted her and that was a big penny drop for me. I thought well, no, something about building that familiarity and the routine. No and that was the undemanding time. Andrew was doing undermining time without knowing she was doing undemanding time because someone had to put her out, someone had to pick the poo up. Someone needs to know and she's right.

Barbara O’Brien: 29:24
Yeah, no, I understand, I understand. Uh, when I still now, okay, so I, I've gotten Rita the mare, the the anxious mare, used to working inside of my barn, you know. So, she can see out one door but the rest of it is enclosed. Um, cause they're, they're out 24 seven. They have shelter, but they're out 24 seven. They're not kept in stalls. So, she comes in and gets some yummies, and you know we do some stuff. So, but leading her out, she has to stop. You have to give her that minute, that that one. Her eyes need chance to change to the light. Horses take a longer time for their light. We can go into a dark room and our eyes will adjust pretty quickly. Horses, it takes a long time. I read like what did it say? You know, Lucy Reese, or no, I'm sorry, the other one that talked about horses brains takes time for their eyes to adjust, right, so that's part of it. When they go into a dark space it's because they're trusting us, because they can't see. But anyway, she's going from a darker space to a lighter space. She has to stop A let her eyes adjust, but she has to check it out. Her Mustang she's a Morgan, but her Mustang mind you know her feral horse, mind goes, I need to see that it's safe. And so, I don't fight that I go sure, take a look. And it's a very. It gets shorter all the time. But I said, take a look, she looks, I look with her, we look, I go see it's cool. She goes, yes, it's cool, and you see her just go fine, and then she steps out. But old me perhaps, you know, would have been like what's the matter with you? You know, energy, energy get out. You know I let her think and that builds trust, because I'm letting her think and.

Julie Smart: 30:57

It shows really great leadership from your point of view as well, because and how she would see you the fact that you're making choices which make her feel better and safer, and you're doing it together. You're sharing that leadership strategy of making sure it's safe before you go out. You know that proves to her that you're a trustworthy person, and I mean how. And it proves to you that you're a trustworthy person and it proves to you that you're a trustworthy person too. I mean, if you have a hesitation, if you stop and have a look. No, to build trust, we need to trust ourselves and we need to trust each other. And, to me, leadership with horses is all about providing safety. Keeping the herd safe is the overall aim of aim of. It’s not about being.

Barbara O’Brien: 31:41
She's the watcher, you know, she's definitely the watcher of the herd, so and, and she'll she transfers that to me too. It's like we're working together, and she'll look, and I'll go like, oh okay, I'll agree with her. Like you know, I'm glad you noticed, I'm glad you noticed that deer and you know like deer in the distance, and then we watch the deer and then we go back .Like, fine, you know, like I just agree with her, I don't get after her for being who she is, you know.

Julie Smart: 32:05
I bet that she pays attention. When you notice things as well, I bet you could say hey, look at that. Oh, yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 32:11
She's much quicker than me, though, believe me. Yeah, yeah, that's their job, that's her job, okay, well, that's, that's a pretty good segue into um, um, horse questions, because when I talked to you about doing this podcast, um, cause, um, Julie, you're, you're, um, are going to be writing a book you talked about and we're going to talk about your book, but it's not out yet. And, um, it's not like you have this big, you know, internet presence or anything like that. The reason I've connected with you is, though, you are commenting and moderating other horse trainers their Facebook pages or their discussions and things like that, and you have an incredible amount of patience, for when somebody asks a question about their horse or the horse they're training, you are so kind, because part of me wants to throttle them sometimes, like, are you an idiot? Stop chasing your horse until she's dying of exhaustion. She's not learning, you know. I mean I have less patience, or could, and I hardly know anything at all, but.

Julie Smart: 33:14
That’s the good thing about writing isn’t it. You can edit before you put it down.

Barbara O’Brien: 33:18
Yeah, but you are so kind. But what I find so striking is your ability to take a very complex issue, and you're doing it now as we speak take a complex thing and break it down for simple people like me to understand, and so I think it's a great gift that you're giving us at large to be able to read your comments, and I know that the horse trainers that you're aligned with are appreciative of you taking the time to answer and help people with the horses. So, I thought it would be fun if I asked a couple questions, that I put it out to my audience. What are you having some issues with? And so, there's two things that came up. One is a personal issue, so I just have to, I have to ask you these things, and the other one was a really good question. It was about how old or is it is a horse. Ever get too old to be trained? And there's a little backstory here. Back in 2010, we we went and there was a group of what we call the Iowa 41, and it was 41 Morgan horses that needed, that needed rescue. Uh, they were starving and the owner at the time turned them over to a rescue group instead of selling them off to auction, slaughter or whatever. So that was great that he turned them over, realized whatever you know, and the rescue group got them, and so and so, um, we went down there and photographed them to help them get homes, and I ended up, of course, taking two of them home, so you know. So, anyway, but they all got placed and one of them was a stallion. I think he was a stallion I'm sure he's a gelding now but a young horse, and they called him Ketchup. Ketchup was his name, and uh, the gal reached out to me when I asked the question, and she said how old is too old to be trained? Because we, we've never been able to, uh, train him. His anxiety level is so high, you know. And so, um, I was going to point her to to Warwick Schiller and, like you say, Elsa Sinclair and some others, to kind of help her with her horse's anxiousness and anxiety. But can horses get too old to learn new things? I mean, can you, you know, work with an old broodmare, for instance?

Julie Smart: 35:20
Yeah, absolutely you can. I don't think they ever stop learning um horses. They're a precocial species, right, you know? So, they're born ready to learn from birth, ready to be up and to be able to run to save their lives within an hour or so of being born. You know um horses couldn't have babies like we do, little helpless young, because they are prey animals, and they're flight animals.  And they rely on being able to move quickly to be able to get away, and so I think that that trait developed, along with the fact that they're just amazing super learners, they learn things really, really fast, and I know that they don't stop learning. The oldest horse that I've ever personally worked with is 30. I've got her in my herd now. But my herd because yeah, I don't sell horses, and so the reason I have 14 horses is because the majority of them are geriatric.

Barbara O’Brien: 36:09
Oh, that's you know. I have seven. I have seven, four that are seniors for sure.

Julie Smart: 36:15
And I mean that thing, that thing that when they say that we're training our horses every time we interact with them, you may have heard that saying that's true. I mean Buck Brenneman. He's got a really good quote, and I can't remember exactly how it goes, but basically, it's along the lines of no, there's no such thing as a push-button horse. You don't get training that sticks. It takes about two weeks for them to reset your level of horsemanship. And, and so I mean that mare had been with me for a good 10 years. She went away for three months. She came back and it didn't take very long. It took just a few sessions, and she was light again. But she had learned that it was okay to lean on the halter or someone someone was was leading her if she didn't want to go and um, and that was a conversation that she and I never um had to deal with. It never came up, pretty, fast because of timing, you know, and the person she was with was a lovely girl, but she was just a little bit inexperienced and, um, she didn't realize that it's the release that teaches, and so she'd started getting into tug of wars with this strong-minded mare who then learned that it was okay to pull. So, she learned that since 25. But she's 30 now. She's the paddock mate of my new horse, Bashir, and this whole thing that I've been doing with teaching, with the saddle and everything she's been involved because she's there and she's very quickly became clicker savvy.  I hadn't done any clicker training with that particular horse, not specifically, but she very quickly picked it up and she knows about parking and targeting because for me to interact with him I needed her to keep out the way and I didn't want to just exclude her because she was enjoying it. I mean, she was lighting up, she was really enjoying it.

Barbara O’Brien: 37:56
Isn't it fun? Yeah.

Julie Smart: 37:59
Yeah, so she goes and stands on the pedestal with her front feet no, because it's waits for a drink, no, and I can do a thing with him and then I can go over and reward her. But but yeah, they definitely don't stop.

Barbara O’Brien: 3:07

And they do mirror each other.

Julie Smart: 38:09
Yeah, oh, they do that, they do she's. She's an emotional support horse for him when he first moved in and they're really good friends. But, yeah, they never stop learning and I think it's important that we do keep teaching them things because it keeps us. No, no, we keep new information keeps you alive, it's good.

Barbara O’Brien: 38:30
Yeah, no, that's, that's really cool. All right, all right. Then the other. The question I had is I've been without a riding horse for four years. Um, my, my heart horse, my old Morgan, um, you know, finally died and um, that was right around. Uh, the pandemic was start, you know, kind of 2019, right. So, the pandemic was sort of starting and, um, horses got to be super expensive because people were home, you know. So, everyone was trying to buy a horse. Um, I couldn't afford a horse and uh, then I did get ahold of a little Arab mare, um, at a pretty good price, but she'd had a lot of trauma and, um, uh, an unhappy, anxious horse, and I don't blame her at all, but I did. I was kind of learning about um Warwick Schiller and some things, but I didn't really, uh, grasp it. I was going too fast, and I thought I'll just get on this horse, ride her bareback, then, you know, start her over, cause she shut down. You know, bareback with a halter, and um, she let me know really clearly that something hurt, or something was really wrong. She bucked me off. I broke my pelvis in three spots. Um took me a while to heal, um, so that was a lesson in humility and patience. So, I found a home for her. She's now a broodmare and nobody rides her and she's very happy, but anyway, cause she was really well bred. So, anyway, for years I didn't have a riding horse and then, just a few months ago, um, uh, you know I'm a person of faith and this uh, um, I believe miracles can happen. And this Morgan Gelding came into my hands. Right? And um, he's really well-trained, he's coming 19. So he's certainly been there, done that, and he was shown when he was younger. He's been cared for his whole life by loving people. You know how lucky is that Right. So, he's, uh, but um, there was, and they were honest. The sellers were honest with me, it's just I didn't have an understanding of what they were talking about, but he's a cribber, and I didn't know what that was because I've never. I mean, I think, oh, that just means you choose on wood. But those are two different things, and I didn't know what cribbing was and for, for our listening audience, cribbing is where a horse will, um, put their teeth over, um, a section of wood or something that they can get a grip on and suck in air and like like this, and, uh, there's a lot of uh discussion about whether that's harmful for them or whatever, but really what it does is releases dopamine in the brain, and so it's a habit, like a child sucking their thumb or somebody twiddling their hair to release stress or any number of things that we do as humans. You know, people become addicted to things, so it's sort of an addictive behavior, and so then the question is is it causing them harm? Does they get ulcers from it? You know whatever? So, but I was reading more about it. The horse doesn’t have a history of ulcers. He's, he's, he's fine, he's not. He's eating well, so he's not losing weight. He's got freedom and forage and friends, which are really important horses. He had that where he was. Uh, the reason he picked up cribbing at all is when he um was younger and had to be confined to a stall for a short time and and that that's where he picked up the stereotypical behavior, um, and then it just never went away. So, I'm not blaming anybody. You know, this was just a circumstance. My other horses are not copying him at all, I don't have to worry. You know, my young horses aren't going to become cribbers. He's not even hurting the fence, you know. So, it's like he just kind of I worry for him if it affects his teeth and stuff. But Warwick Schiller just said recently about this cribbing that I'm all anxious about it.
 Right, like I'm almost embarrassed, like, oh my gosh, I have a horse that cribs and I'm supposed to like be this great horse person who you know the horses aren't suffering and everything. Everybody's happy here. You know, well, A he didn't develop the behavior here and B Warwick said it's just a lesson in patience. It's like, oh well, acceptance, oh well, you know, don't go. I mean, I've never was going to put a cribbing collar on him, or do things to make him stop, because that's just going to frustrate him, you know. But but it was also a. He's wonderful in a hundred million ways. This is the one thing we got to put up with, you know, but it bothers me still. Look out the window and there he is, you know, and I just wish that it will like diminish over time, especially when we can open up the big pastures and there's there's no wood there, but it's got so much grass. But with horses that can suffer from laminitis and the rich grass here, we're extremely careful in the spring, so we have to wait, but he does have hay 24, seven, you know. I mean, he's got food in front of him all the time. Um, so it's just a matter of like accepting him who he is. Yeah, so any thoughts on that and stereotypical behaviors that you're not causing, like you've taken away the things that cause confinement, or you know?

Julie Smart: 43:11
Well, horses that they tend to be sort of pattern animals. You know they pick up patterns of behavior and, um yeah, funnily enough, like cribbing, is not something we see much here in New Zealand, because most of our horses are kept outside.

Barbara O’Brien: 43:26

And mine are, right.

Julie Smart: 43:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, which is great, but, um, but, as you said, no, it was caused by confinement originally. It's frustration and, um, and wanting to know, when you can't do all the natural things that you would normally do, you pick up these stereotypes, you know, um, it's a displaced behavior. You know it's like sucking your thumb. You know it's self-soothing sort of thing and and, yeah, I'm with Warwick, I mean, I do think it's an exercise in patience. I think that I mean, like with any, if you read anything about addictions, we know that it's not the substance that is addictive, it's the need to feel better. You know the dopamine and one of the things I found really interesting, which I read in Jack Pagsepp's book Affective Neuroscience, and Lockie has spoken, has spoken about he's touched on it once recently as well which actually triggered me to to go and look it up um, quite often with dopamine, you also get opiates. You know, so dopamine and opiates, no, there is a connection between the two and and, and you can't I don't know enough about it to speak with any sort of yeah, real knowledge on it, but um, but I do know that with addictions, um, people just want to feel better. They don't necessarily I mean. I. I know someone who was addicted to alcohol, and she then became addicted to something worse, and she dropped alcohol like a hot brick but and
and she destroyed herself pretty much, no, no, her brain, her health, everything. She found Jesus.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:10

I love it.

Julie Smart: 45:12
I don't know if, if I can compare that to switching addictions, but it was quite interesting that it was a lot easier for her because she was finding something that fulfilled that hole inside her. You know.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:23
Yeah, that's wonderful.

Julie Smart: 45:28
So I think, what you're providing for your horse. It's just a matter of, as you say, patience and let it come back. The only horse I actually personally know now that cribs, belongs to a friend of mine. He's the most beautiful, calm, lovely boy in the world and he's an ex-racehorse from Hong Kong, and so they have a very no, no, rigid. They live underground, they live in apartments, and they only ever come out to race and to train, and that's it.

Barbara O’Brien: 45:54

Right.

Julie Smart: 45:59
And yeah, he still does it, you know, and for him it's a habit, it's like picking up a cigarette. No, he just doesn't. Just, I don't think it's hurting, you know, I don't think, and I, when I've spoke to my vets, they don't seem to think that it's a physical no, no thing, no to worry about too much. So so, yeah, I'm with you. Like you say, enjoy, I mean the. The journey is the destination. So, we learn all these things as we go along, right, no, yeah, yeah not to be said, for that patience lots to be found in there, so I'm glad you're enjoying it. Yeah, and I'm sorry that you lost your heart horse, and congratulations on your new horse.

Barbara O’Brien: 46:30

Yeah, well, it is a it's a miracle to me to have a horse to ride again because, yeah, I, you know I hadn't ridden in so long and I have seven horses, you know. So, it's not. But there's like there was three older rescue mares that we had for years and they're just with through, finally, they're dying off as they get older, you know, so old that they finally die. But you know, I made a commitment to them, and they came lame, they came so you could never ride them. So, they're just our beautiful companions and we love them, you know. And then the three young horses right who are too young to ride. So that's just a matter of patience and time. And then to get this, this, you know, amazing gift, practically, of this guy who's like, just like, up game, let's go for a trail ride, let's go do this, let's go do that, who seems to enjoy my company, who was well loved, I mean, I just love that. His people loved him, you know. And the girl that who placed him with me knows he's safe. You know what a gift for her, like she, you know safe? Yeah, because she just couldn't keep him any longer, and so I said I'm just hanging on to him for you. You know the time in your life comes and you can have him back, talk to me. But anyway, he's safe and he's lovely and his name is Teddy, talk to me.

Julie Smart: 47:36
Oh, he's gorgeous yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 47:38
Yeah, okay. Well, I think it's time to we get to the point where we I sent you a list of questions and I can I got these questions that Warwick Schiller does this in his podcast, which I greatly admire, but he got these questions from a book called Tribe of Mentors by Tim Ferriss. So, we want to make sure we give credit to that, but I love what he was doing, so I'm totally copying that. Quick Warwick Schiller's story. He was in. He was only he lives in California now, but he was only yeah what 80 miles away from me because he was at the Minnesota Horse Expo this weekend and I was like trying to work up my courage to go because I thought, oh, I could actually go to his booth and say hello. And then I decided, you know, I'm not going to do that, I was too nervous, so I didn't  go.

(Music): 48:26

Barbara O’Brien: 48:32

Hold on a second. I opened a program by accident my cat is walking all over my keyboard, and it opened up Adobe Photoshop and he's trying to do some work here, and now she's chewing on my fingers, little Iris, here. Okay, so getting back to the questions, there's 20 questions and I had you pick out five that you wanted me to ask her and or ask you, and so one of the first questions is what book would you recommend and why?

Julie Smart: 49:02
Well, I love books, I love reading, I work in publishing. I think it's so important, and and I I mean that's a whole podcast in itself as well, isn't it? But.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:11

Oh yeah, we did. Uh, we just did a podcast on Margaret Henry. Do you familiar with Misty of Chincoteague?

Julie Smart: 49:15
Oh, lovely, yeah, King of the Wind, just so inspired me.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:19
King of the Wind, yeah, so a gal wrote a book. You have to check out Susan Friedland, our last podcast. Susan Friedland wrote a book about Margaret Henry. So yes, books for sure.

Julie Smart: 49:30
Fantastic. Yeah Well, right now, I mean even within reach. You know, I've got this one here and

Barbara O’Brien: 49: 37

I have that book.

Julie Smart: 49:39
I mean there's so many great, great books, but the one so.

Barbara O’Brien: 49:42

So, for those that you can't see. She held up Through Horsemanship with Feel. And that is Tom Dorrance and Leslie Deasman. And I tell you I read that years ago and it was really hard to get through because it's some very complex ideas, right. And then I read it again just recently with my new understanding of attunement and feel because you mentioned, feel quite a bit, yeah, and it's, there's so much there. Of course, Leslie’s wonderful Tom Dorrance is gone now, but all of the all of the people that are like Warwick Schiller and others credit, you know, Tom Dorrance an awful lot, you know like.

Julie Smart: 50:18
This one's Bill Dorrance his brother.

Barbara O’Brien: 50:20
Bill Dorrance, forgive me. Yes, I meant yeah, tom and Bill Dorrance together and Leslie Demon, of course. Right, so that's a great book. Let's say that name again for everyone, because some people won't be watching the video.

Julie Smart: 50:32
So True Horsemanship through Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond um, yes, but I would also probably the books. That would be the first one I would recommend for anyone to read. Because, same with you, when I first read this, I had I I needed to teach myself how to speak cowboy. I didn't know what they were talking about. What do they mean, you know?

Barbara O’Brien: 50:53
Yeah, no, exactly.

Julie Smart: 50:55

To understand it comes better, but what I, the book I most recommend now is actually Warwick's one.

Barbara O’Brien: 50:59
Oh yes, Warwick’s new book yes.

Julie Smart: 51:00
Yeah, and the reason I recommend that is because it's truth in packaging. It's in the title the principles of training. The book is about principles, not technique and, if you think about it, most of the learning we do around horses is all technique-based. I mean, when I was a little girl, it was about learning to ride and it was heads up, heels down, hands, no shoulders back. It's all about positioning yourself and skill building as such. But I think that principles and concepts are so much more important and, um, I mean, probably the thing that that made you notice me is that, um, I understand concepts and principles really well and I don't really pay that much attention to the technicalities. I don't mind, I mean, I just think of the concepts I mentioned before that I see taming and training as two different things. When I cross the threshold from taming into training, when my horse now trusts me and he's curious and he's ready, you know I will use whichever technique is the best one for that horse in that moment, at that time I'm a mixed methodologist. I don't just only do one thing; I don't show anything. No, I think everyone's got a little piece of the truth, even by accident. There's something to learn from somebody, and I think that Warwick's book talks specifically to the principles, and I think that that is so important and it's beautifully written, it's very clear and it's not a hard read. You can get through it, and I think that there's a lot to be learned in there. Yeah, principles.

Barbara O’Brien: 52:35
So Warwick Schiller's principles. I'm sorry. What's the name of the book again? Warwick Schiller's principles of training?

Julie Smart: 52:42
Principles of training.

Barbara O’Brien: 52:43
Okay, excellent book, all right. All right, what has been your biggest failure and how has it helped you?

Julie Smart: 52:49  
Oh gosh, I've had so many. Well, one thing about failure is no, that's how we learn right. We make mistakes, and I'll tell you about my horse, Ethel. This was in my late 20s and she was homebred Clydesdale thoroughbred cross 17, two hands about six years old at the time. Now, when I was young and before I learned better, I thought there were two sorts of horses the horses that go and the horses that don't go. I liked horses that go. I worked in the racing industry. All of the horses I had were Arab or thoroughbred derivatives. I liked point and shoot. I didn't know how to motivate a stubborn horse. I don't like hitting horses. I've never wanted to do that, but I didn't know anything else to do with a horse that wasn't motivated because I hadn't bought anything else, and so I would choose horses that go. The thing is, when you breed a horse, you don't know who you're going to get. You can go for all the tendencies and the breeding, but every individual is born with every single individual person, all animals, you know, we're all ourselves first. You know, and Ethel didn't really like to go, not in general. She'd be good as long as she was into it. You know, but if she decided no, she'd just go. No, I, I'm, I'm not going to go and so I would come across this. You know, if I wanted to ride out sometimes, if I was trying to lead her away from her herd, um, no, various things where she would eject, and I would get this. I don't want to go forwards anyhow. It came to a head when I couldn't get her onto a trailer, or we call them horse floats here, and there was a man who was advertising that for $300, he would come and spend as much time as it takes to get your horse into a horse float and he would give you a schedule of things to do for seven days and he would guarantee your horse would load every time for the rest of his life, otherwise he would come back and he would resolve the problem for you. And $300, one price. That was his promise, you know. So, I thought, great, okay, I'm going to pay this guy. And he came out and he was a good horseman. And he was a good horseman. He actually was a good horseman. He had an idea, but it wasn't like yeah, it was the first glimpse into a different way of doing things for me. Well, not the first glimpse, but he showed me something different. The principle he was working with we were talking about principles before is choose where you um, um, choose where you work and choose where you rest, and? Um, make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult. No, now, both of those are principles which have their place, and for this particular horse, they were the correct principles because she was not scared. No, I mean. Pretty much any problem you have with the horse is always going to come down to one of three things. It's that basic, honestly. It's either a trust or safety confidence issue no, the horse is scared. Or the horse doesn't understand. It's a communication issue we're not being clear enough, or we haven't taught them well enough, so they don't understand us yet. Or it's a leadership issue. The horse just doesn't see why they should do it. They don't have any reason to believe that you're a good leader and when I say leader, I'm not talking about dominance. I mean that is one factor. It is definitely a factor, but that's not what I mean. What I mean is you're the best provider of safety. You make the best decisions. You always make them feel better. You have proven yourself to be someone that's worth trusting and believing in and saying yes to. You know that's where you get those yes answers that we look for. So, um, anyway, this guy, he had great feel and timing, he had her loading very, very quickly and he, he showed me what to do, you know. And and um, he said I want you to do this for seven days and no, let me know if you have any problems. So, the first day it was easy. I just went out there, I sent her out on a circle, and she went straight into the float great game over, you know. The second day we had to do a few more circles and that was fine. The third day she said no, and of course this was that same thing about just no horses that don't want to go, and me thinking that she's one of those types of horses and she wouldn't go. And so, I went to try and move her shoulder over. I didn't have any skills or technique. I had been taught, I'd been shown what to do, didn't mean that I could do it. So, I went to try and yield her shoulder and she stood side on to me. She looked at me with one eye, she flattened her ears and stood side on to me. She looked at me with one eye, she flattened her ears, and, like a snake, she turned, and she attacked, and she flew at me. I ran into that horse float so far. She had me loaded like that. It was amazing active leadership from her, and it was terrifying. In that instant, everything changed for me in my life. It was I've never, ever, had a horse look at me as though they wanted to kill me before. She was deadly serious and and she knew it, I knew it everything had changed 17 hands of horse that had suddenly realized that she didn't have to do what I said. No, I challenged her, and I didn't have the skills to be able to do it. So.

Barbara O’Brien: 57:50
Oh yeah, I can relate for sure, that's how I got thrown. I'd never been thrown in my life, not like that.

Julie Smart: 57:54
Yeah, no absolutely terrifying. And, um, I, I, luckily, I could get out the jockey door and I got, and she, she had chased me into the trailer, which is quite funny. She, she backed out and I got the end of the rope all the way back to the to the paddock. She was trying to bite me. She was going for my shoulders. No, like she actually lifted me at one point. She meant business. She was furious. So, I put her behind the first gate that I could find that would do and I was shattered. I was devastated. I could not. All of my confidence, just everything that I thought I knew was out the window.

Barbara O’Brien: 58:29
Oh, I'm so understanding this. That's how I felt after I got hurt. I understand, yeah.

Julie Smart: 58:34
Yeah, yeah, it was dreadful. So, I went home, I cried, I told Roger, he, he, no, we, we rang the man and he and he said, right, I'll come back. So. So he came back over, and he asked me can you just show me what happened? And so.

Barbara O’Brien: 58:47
And you’re like, I don’t even want to go near her.

Julie Smart: 58:50
Yeah, very tentatively, I picked up the rope and asked her to move her shoulder and she immediately flattened her knees. He says that's fine, it's fine, I'll do it from here. He had no problem. She immediately did it for him. You know, and I didn't resolve it with that horse, you know he could get her to to load I. I was now completely um, I was frightened of her. It was um, I, I felt out of my depths. I didn't have the skills. It was horrific, you know, it was really bad.

Barbara O’Brien: 59:15
I understand it shakes your confidence. Yeah.

Julie Smart: 59:16
Yeah, that's yeah.  But the big lesson in this is, for me, is it sounds quite unrelated to start with, but the thing is don't believe what people say about other people's horsemanship, and just go to the source and find out for yourself. See, the thing is, all my answers came to me about 10 years later, when I hurt my back and when I started investigating the groundwork and learn, putting the time into learning how to do that properly. You know, um, the people at that stage, it was such little natural horsemanship or anything. It wasn't traditional. No, no one was talking about operating conditioning. No one knew any of that stuff. But, um, back then, no, no, I didn't have many options. The options I did have there was, um, a book by Monty Roberts about join up, yeah, and I had a DVD that I'd picked up in some strange place from an Australian guy called Neil Davies. It was called a breakthrough for breaking in and he would start a horse in the round pen within 20 minutes. No, and this is the video of him showing that process. Both of those things I had completely stuffed up trying to do them, just by trying to learn them remotely. You know right, this is one of these things which I don't 100% agree with is that we're not always the best trainer for our horse sometimes we need to be trained as well. You know, and I do think, that we need hands-on help. Occasionally, when I was trying to learn remotely, with absolutely no support whatsoever, I didn't have the feel or the timing to be able to do it.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:0048

No, that's true. Yeah, no, I have a helper that. Yeah, I get it.

Julie Smart: 1:00:52
You have to develop it. And the thing is, the system that would have saved me and Ethel from that dreadful incident is um I, I wasted 10 years of my life in my physical peak, in my lifetime endeavor, because I believe someone that said, oh, don't do Pirelli, that's really rubbish, you know, and I'm not wanting to bang on about them so much, but that was what started things for me and that was a springboard into everything else. You know.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:01:28
No, I get it I thought I knew things and then I got hurt and I had to like really learn and take the time to learn and follow the steps to you know, take as long as it takes, and that's hard for, because impatience is my worst trait, so I get it. I feel like we must be soul sisters, because I tell you and it's terrible. Okay, the next question is if you could send a message to the world, what would that? Or do you have a favorite quote, and why?

Julie Smart: 1:01:57
Well, the message would be pretty much related to what we were just talking about. As a myth’s methodologist, I have got so much value from so many really diverse people who would never spend five minutes with each other. I think that we need to build connections and look for what we have in common with people rather than look for differences and demonize people. No.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:02:17
Oh yes.

Julie Smart: 1:02:19
That. No, I mean that lost 10 years. I'll never, ever get that back. You know, um, I do believe with time. I think that time accumulates. I don't think we spend it; I don't think we waste it. I think it accumulates behind us, and time matters because what we do with our time and what we accumulate is what forms us into the people we are. You know everything and so, um and so to me, I will listen and look and watch and learn from just about anybody. Um, if someone tells me that someone's terrible, I'm probably more motivated to go and see them. I can't stomach seeing any sort of abuse whatsoever, so I mean I can't do that. But the whole this thing we have about othering, other groups, you know, what worries me is what held me up for 10 years, for example. I think positive reinforcement is an amazing thing, I know a lot of people are put off it because they feel so judged by the people within there, because they're not doing it yet. They don't know how to do it and they don't understand all the terms and no, they're not using it and so therefore they're being mean to their horses. I mean, that sort of stuff needs to stop, because the message itself is too important and we do have a lot more in common. So, I think that that's that. That's what I would really love to get out out to the world. I can't think of a single saying that sort of relates to that really, I know.  

Barbara O’Brien: 01:03:43
I think you're exactly right. We do need to be more welcoming and learn from each other, that's that's a good thing. I love that.

Julie Smart: 1:03:50
Go to the source. You know it's critical thinking. Isn't critical thinking skills to actually look at the source itself. Don't believe what people who don't support them say. Go and have a look yourself. Look at the person, Look at their horse. That's the most important thing. Look at their horses. Then look at their students and look at their students' horses. You know if it's translatable and it's good then there's something there worth learning, you know,

Barbara O’Brien: 1:04:12

Right, good, okay, um, the next question is uh, what is your relationship with fear?

Julie Smart: 1:04:19
I love this topic. There's another whole by itself, um, fear. I'd like to answer in two ways. The first way is sort of more practical and the other way is more sort of philosophical, really. But, um, I think, well, fear is obviously there to keep us safe, you know. It's there for a reason. I think it's very important that we acknowledge it. My relationship over my life has been pretty steady with fear. I am not a risk taker, I'm a very cautious person. I really do think quite deeply before I know, and, um, I can be impulsive, but I'm impulsive in in repetitive patterns. I'm not impulsive,  no, like I can randomly go for a ride right now if someone comes and says so, you know, but I'm not going to go bungee jumping or anything like that. No, I'm not a business jump, I don't take risks. And so here in New Zealand we've got a thing called ACC, which is, instead of suing people when you get get hurt, the government pays for you to get better, and we all pay a tax on it. There's a levy. So, every job we have has this ACC levy. The ACC levy for horsemanship, for anyone doing anything with horses, is sky high because statistically it's an extremely dangerous thing to do, especially as a job yeah yeah, and so I mean the amount of time that I've spent with horses. I probably should have been quite badly hurt. I was hurt once when I was 13 and I was a teenager and reckless, and I fell off a pony and broke my arm. That's it. I've never hurt myself with horses. Because I am a coward, I will run away from anything. Well, not run away, but if I get a tingle, I listen to it. No, you've got to believe you're fair, and I believe that first we've got to acknowledge fear. Secondly, I think if we're scared of something, we should treat ourselves the way we treat a scared horse Use titration, use approach and retreat, use attunement, use cat H. It would be cat H for humans, I suppose. Yeah, and when your curiosity is up, then take that next step. If I'm scared to ride my horse, I think, okay, I'm really scared to ride my horse. How do I feel about just going and catching him? Well, I can do that, that's all right. What about if I saddle him? Ah, now anxieties rising. So, I will visualize saddling that horse until I don't feel anxious about just knowing in my visualization. I'll put the saddle saddle on, taking it straight off. Then you go and do that put it on, take it off until that feels okay and then go to the next step.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:06:41
I understand completely. I had a breakthrough with that mare I was telling you about. I had a real breakthrough with her when I I mentally decided I'm not going to be afraid of you anymore. You know, like I mean, I will be cautious and careful, I'm not going to surprise her or do something that puts her over threshold. Okay, you know, because then if she reacts, that's kind of on me. But I made a conscious decision to literally think and and believe it. Okay, not fake it, but believe I'm not going to be afraid anymore, I'm going to breathe around you, I'm going to be relaxed around you. I'm making the conscious decision to have my brain match my body so I'm not incongruent and make her worry and it's, it's been really great because, you know, as long as I'm not doing anything foolish that sends her over threshold, you know, like something unfair, or you know, I'm being fair to her by giving her time. Right? Wow, it's just really nice. It's like I really like her. I was going to send her back in the beginning. In the beginning I called the breeder, and I said I don't think I can do this. I'm, I'm so afraid of her. I've never had a horse threatened to kick me, you know that scared me so much, um, but then we, you know she doesn't threaten to kick me anymore. I mean, it's not there anymore and I, I'm always going to be. This is a thousand-pound horse. You know I'm not going to be foolish, but I made that. You know that that the fear was really wise in the beginning for that particular horse. So, I, you know that's why working through the fence, you know those kind of things. But I built confidence and her confidence at the same time. We worked through it together, you know. So, um, learning to accept that I was afraid. And then how, like you said, triation to work closer and closer and closer. And I'm still going to be probably my helper, who's a wonderful attuned. I had her on my podcast. Her name is Tiffany Stauffer. She comes and helps me with this horse and it's just like you said she's done all the, she's got the gift of the feel and the whole thing, and the Rita just goes oh, it's you. Okay, you know that will be the one who'll actually get on her back the very first time we're working together, you know, because I think I would have so much baggage coming with me that I would make my poor horse anxious. Thank God I have someone like Tiffany to help me. Okay.

Julie Smart: 1:08:50
Well, I mean you respecting your own fear and your own boundaries. That means that you are trustworthy to you. That means that if you trust yourself, your horse will find it a lot easier. It's a circle. It's a circle of making those right decisions, and it's so important. Carry on.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:09:05

Exactly, exactly, okay. And then the last question we have is what is the luckiest thing that has ever happened to you?

Julie Smart: 1:09:15
I was born to my mother. My mother is my absolute hero. She has been an incredible role model incredible. She's always supported me. She's never, ever let me down. She's sorted me out when I've needed sorting out, but she's never, ever left me to flounder too much. And she taught me well. She taught me real values like loyalty and compassion and kindness and common sense. You know, yeah, if it wasn't for her empowering me, I don't think I would be anywhere near as happy as I am, you know.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:09:56

That's wonderful, and she's still with us, then she's still here.

Julie Smart: 1:09:59
Yeah, she is. Yeah, I'm usually up with her about twice a week. She lives about an hour away from me.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:10:03
Oh, that's right.

Julie Smart: 1:10:04
She has Great Danes. She lives with three dogs, and she loves big dogs and when she had horses, she liked big horses. She used to have Clydesdales, oh that's lovely.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:10:15
Well, we're going to say a big hi to Julie's mom. Hey. Julie's mom. That's wonderful. I'm glad of it. Okay.

Julie Smart: 1:10:22
Okay, she’ll at least will listen to this.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:10:24
There you go. We'll have one person, so that's good, that's good, especially one from New Zealand. I love it. So wonderful, okay, um, so then, uh, how, if people wanted to? Um, oh wait, I'm gonna let you speak about the book that you're working on and then after that we'll just talk about if someone wanted to get in touch with you. What is the best way? So, let's talk about this book.

Julie Smart: 1:10:44
Okay, um, well, I wanted to write a book about the basics and, um and like, when I was working with those wild horses, we were told to just teach them the basics to catch them, tie them, lead, trailer, load, do all the things that are vital, pick up their feet and all that sort of thing. But what those horses taught me, of course, that those aren't the basics. And I started writing this book and I just wanted to cover everything. I learned, all the things that I would like to have known when I was starting out. Um, when I spoke to Warwick about it and he said the best thing ever, he just said well, the basics aren't the basics. The basics are the things that you do in order to do the basics. I mean, that's it, that's my book, and I'm very pleased he's given me permission to quote him on that. You know, so so, um, so, so yeah, but it's a little bit um, anecdotal. There's a lot of research, um, um, I've, I've been, I've learned a lot about myself in the process of writing it, because, no, I really should have got it out by now. The book is is written. I'm just now editing. I'm down to the last two chapters.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:11:57

Oh, that's wonderful.

Julie Smart: 1:11:58
Yeah, I've got the wonderful Tanya Kindersley of the Red Mare. She has agreed to edit it for me. She's a very good author. Writer.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:12:10
I have her book. Yeah, I have her book.

Julie Smart: 1:12:13
Yeah, she's written about 16 books and she's ghostwritten books for other people as well. So hopefully I'm going to be handing into her careful custody soon and she'll knock it into shape and make it the best version of itself it can be.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:12: 24

That’s fantastic.

Julie Smart: 1:12:25
Yeah, and I'll be self-publishing. For various reasons, I haven't approached any publishers. I think that it's a very niche sort of subject and I'm not well known enough to get into the type of books that publish those niche subjects, so I just need to get it out there. Oh, there's a saying I've just thought of one of the previous ones um Wayne Dyer, Dr. Wayne Dyer, um, he influenced me a lot, um a long time ago and, uh, one of the things he says is don't die with your song still inside you. No, I do think that this is my song, and so I'm just getting getting that out there. So, yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:13:00
That's fantastic. Okay, and then, if someone had wanted to, well, first of all we can find your comments on, which are the. Which are the pages that you comment on the most, the trainers that you, you have your wonderful insights on on Facebook, because that's what I found.

Julie Smart: 1:13:18
Probably Warwick’s. Um, since I've been, since I've been writing the book, I haven't really been spending much time on Facebook as such, and I do have a page. I've got. I've got a web page and a Facebook page. I didn't mention them on the form because I'm a bit embarrassed about them, because I've been completely neglecting them. No, there's nothing on there which is no, there's stuff on there which I've changed my mind about, for example, but just so people know, it's poniesnaturally.com. Just one word poniesnaturally.com.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:13:49
And we'll list this on the show notes. But if they wanted to email you or something, they could find you through that website or how would they contact you?

Julie Smart: 1:13:55
Absolutely or um, my Facebook, um page is called ponies naturally as well. I'm also on Facebook, just as Julie Smart and, and my avatar always has horses on it, usually a few of them. So, so that will. Uh, I'm pretty easy to find.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:14:10
Oh, you're uh you're a very open, lovely person. I mean I just reached to you out of the blue and said I got to have you in my podcast because the way you comment and explain things and I learn from you all the time, so I was just thrilled when you said yes, and that's probably a good place to wrap it up. I'm really grateful you took the time with us today and you were talking to me, as we mentioned, from the future, because you're 18 hours ahead of me. So here it's Sunday in Wisconsin and it's Monday in New Zealand and I have so much fun wrapping my brain around that. So, you know the future.

Julie Smart: 1:14:44
Yeah, I really appreciate the invitation. Yeah, Thank you, I appreciate it and I was surprised, but yeah it. But yeah, I've enjoyed this. Thank you very much.

Barbara O’Brien: 1:14:58
We're grateful that you were able to come.

(Outro music): 1:15:00