Katenna Jones - Regarding Pets - Being Kind Feels Right - S1 E6

Welcome to the empathetic trainer, and our guest today is Katina Jones. She has a whole bunch of letters after her name.

My friends a joke that it's just. I was doing my signature and a cat walked across my keyboard.

That's what happened. That's what it looks like. Yeah, so I'm just gonna read your bio real quick to kind of give you a quick introduction to my audience. But Katina Jones, through Jones animal behavior, provides in-person and virtual behavior Consultations, as well as educational seminars to pet owners, rescues and pet professionals. She speaks at international events, contributes to a wide variety of publications and is author of fetching the perfect dog trainer getting the best for you and your dog. Oh, we're definitely going to talk about that.

Katina began her career as a volunteer dog walker in 1999 and went on to earn her master's degree from Brown University when she studied animal behavior learning and the cognition. Eventually she became a cruelty investigator, worked for the American Humane's Association and also for the Association of Professional Dog Trainers. Katina is an associate, certified applied animal behaviorist, certified cat and dog behavior consultant, certified pet dog trainer and certified fear-free trainer. She lives in Rhode Island with her two cats, five chickens and random foster pets. Well, I can, I can relate to some of this for sure, not the education so much, but the, the chickens and the random pets yeah, cats.

Recently I had seven cats and I'm oh my god, I'm a crazy cat lady now, oh, you just you're?

you're just a cat lady in training. I mean, that's hardly any at all.

Yeah. I used to do investigations and would go to hoarding cases. It'd be like 60 to 100 cats.

Yeah, no, I that can relate to that very briefly in my very, very early on I worked for the Minnesota Humane Society and Mostly I was the secretary or you know, administration, that kind of stuff, because this was Maybe 35 years ago, quite a long time ago now.

This is there for a while and but then they would send me out on investigations and that was one of the hardest things because, as you know, you know you want to bring those horses home. I mean, they get rescued, but you want them like now. You know, yeah.

And waiting for the court processes?

Yeah, I'm so, and so I'm sure you've got some some pretty harrowing tales about that but and I bet they did a lot of good work. But so I wanted to talk to you about like okay, how did you get all of what, what? Where did it start? You know some animal people you know. Are we just born with it? I'd like to know kind of like what your your first kind of memories of animals and how they affected you and why you're even. You know you have an animal life. How did this happen?

Yeah, well, I was that kid. You know, in my yard if I found a fallen baby bird or I remember a friend's family was doing construction, there was little baby mice in the wall I would always bring those creatures home in my. My parents weren't real thrilled with all the stuff that I was bringing home, you know, because we lived in farm areas so there's kittens everywhere and I knew I wanted to do something with animals, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. So I might.

For undergraduate I studied biology and and discovered something called animal behavior and my plan was to study gorillas and my senior year I was bored, so I started volunteering at a local animal shelter and then realized at that time that I'm afraid of spiders, so Rwanda is probably not the place to go. Yeah, like, living in the jungle is probably not conducive to being afraid of bugs. So I I realized there was animal, because I thought animal behavior was only animals in the wild. And then I discovered, oh, you can work with companion animals also, and I, as a volunteer, I fell in love with the rescue world. And then I found a pro. I was accepted to a program at Brown University where my advisor was working with shelter dogs. So I moved my life to Rhode Island and studied shelter dogs and then Just kind of one thing led to another, led to another and basically any opportunity that came, I said yes.

That's a good way to approach life. You know when things show up, you know if it's not gonna hurt you or somebody else. You say yes, that's a great way to approach it. So you said you moved to Rhode Island. Where did you come from then?

The Adirondacks, northern New York.

Oh beautiful, you're beautiful country just all across the board. There you must have the changing seasons right now too, because it's fall.

Yeah, wisconsin, the leaves are falling outside bad, bad, okay.

well then, how, how did you take this education and the experiences that you were having and and do that magical thing where you sort of make a living from it?

that you know, because that's kind of impossible thing, yeah well, I was working at the Rhode Island as PCA at the time and as my job there I was animal behaviorist, so I worked with all the the cats and the dogs and we started offering consulting services to the public. So when people adopted pets, I would help them, help the pet adjust and deal with issues. And as I did that, I just got more and more practice with harder and harder cases and I would come across a case that I didn't know how to deal with and I'd go and find Information to learn about that, and then it was all books. It wasn't. There were no webinars or anything.

Yeah and I just slowly learned by reading all of I've got all my reference books back there and just reading books and eventually going to conferences and at the time APDT was the only place that had Informational conferences where you could learn how to do consulting type stuff. And so I was traveling around and I have to write grants because I was working for a nonprofit and gradually just met different people and learned more and more and it just slowly became a thing and then I started working. I left the SPCA because I had a bit of a shelter burnout situation.

That's I was doing cruelty investigation and and it was my job to assess all the cats and dogs. So I had to make the life and death decisions, which became very difficult.

That would be a lot to carry. Yeah, I mean even though they don't know tomorrow. You know they don't know tomorrow. They only know the, the comfort and the good things that you're giving them at that moment. It's still a hard thing for humans to carry.

Yeah, it really is, and I completely burnt out and had a bit of a breakdown so I had to leave rescue and Ended up getting a job at American Humane. And that's the. No animals were harmed.

Credit end of film as an animal actor trainer, I'm completely familiar, because when we go on set we need a humane representative to Protect the animals and we love it. Because then we can say, oh you know, I Never had, I don't I'm really careful with my animals anyway but say I had an argument with the director, they, they'd be there to back me up and say no, absolutely not, although If that doesn't really happen with us, because I won't even get that close, but the point is they're there to make sure that nothing causes the animal stress or problems.

So that's a good and they have At the time. I don't know if they still do. They have a child division and an animal division and I was in humane education which straddled both. Oh, working for them. My job was to create the content of Educational with the behavioral content of educational materials, so like dog bite prevention programs and Classes for getting ready if you're having a baby or adopting a child, to prepare you okay.

Okay, I had no idea that was so encompassing. That's pretty cool what they did. So you were there and then what? Then? What happened?

Um, I ended up leaving. No, they Closed our department. So we all were kind of scattered to the wind and, through my work with them, I started working with a PDT and a PDT found out. I was Wandering around looking for a job and so they hired role for my audience APD. What is that? A PDT, association of professional dog trainers.

Okay and at the time it was the world's largest dog training related membership organization and they hired me to be director of education. So I created all of the online content and that's when webinars were just getting started and online courses, and we created Multi-module courses and it sort of exploded from there sure, sure, well, you're younger than me but you may remember a time when dog training Was.

There's been a real shift, a revolution, a really good revolution In dog training, and it's just starting in horse training. But in dog training, you know, over the last I don't what would you say 20 years, you know it's just been just a huge shift, because I remember choke chains and a lot of dominance theory and you know, if you're gonna make him do something, so don't give him, you know, like to feed him his kibble. You have to make him do something, you know. And da, da, da. And I just heard something really amazing the other day instead of looking at behavior like what's wrong with you, look at it like what happened to you. We do that with our people that have gone through trauma and adverse childhood experiences. So Behavior I learned this, just heard this like two days ago and you, you already know Behavior is a form of communication.

Yeah, so everything your pet does is they're communicating to you in the only way that they can, so they don't have the language that you speak, so they're speaking with their language, which is body language.

So most of the problems that horses have are with people. So most of the problems that dogs and our cats and other animals have are with people. And the title of your book, which I really love I'm just gonna refer back to that quick fetching the perfect dog trainer, getting the best for you and your dog. That's a, that's a paradigm shift. I mean, what a great way to look at it. So, instead of you know the whole way it used to be, this looks like Finding the right person to help you get the right approach.

Yes, right in that transition. So I found, you know, like the Kohler method and all the Heavy-handed training stuff, and I also found content from like Ian Dunbar and so there were the two sides when I first started and Just being kind felt right to me because I had seen, yeah, what a scene dogs being choked and it just didn't feel right in my gut.

No, I, because I remember that when I was in dog training classes as a youngster because that's when I started walking dogs 50 cents a dog. I was a kid, but you know, as I didn't have any pets growing up, I had to borrow neighborhood pets and they'd give me money just to walk them and I was thrilled.

But anyway I remember that you were a pioneer, you were a pioneer.

Well, I remember being in class and two dogs started to fight and they they hung them up, choke the air out of them and I just, you know, and you said that how it viscerally made you feel, you know, made me feel ill and I'm like this is not how it should be done. And I learned that real, real young, and obviously you did too. But you said, you said something just a little bit ago about kind being, kind feels right. Being kind feels right. Is that what? That's a wonderful, yeah, approach. So you started with the next. The next was that organization, okay, and then I. Then what happened after that?

Well, at that time I was doing all the education. So I was basically getting free education because I that was my job was to create everything, so planning the conferences and all the online webinars and whatnot. So I got a pretty big education while I was working for them. And Then I ended up leaving that organization. In I was like, why can't I do this? So I started because I had been doing it a little bit on the side here and there, helping a client like one client a month or something and I just started expanding it and taking more and more and more and eventually it became full-time. So it kind of dovetailed. So as I was leaving the organization, I started taking on more clients. So by the time I left I had enough clients to pay my bills.

Oh, that's wonderful, and not so much the living but the important work you're doing. I mean it's great if we can make a living right just to you know, goodbye. But the fact that you're helping so many pets, because that's got to be the end result. With the education, because all of you, if you go to her website, which is jonesanimalbehaviorcom I was tooling around on it the last few days there's just a ton of free information right there, all these articles, everything about your approach, how to get a consultation if that's what they want to do with you. But it was educational just to go and start even looking.

There was an article there by David. I don't know how to pronounce his last name, but Mech or Meach. Oh, mech, yep, david, mech the Wolf Men. That was one of the first books I got as a youngster. I was like to my parents I want this book of wolves and men. I believe it was called because I wanted to learn about that and there's an article on there because he was like the wolf guy, you know still a wolf guy?

Yeah, he's the one that created the alpha term, the term alpha and beta.

Right, the whole thing about how we're going to be dominant. And he nah, now looking back, he's changed his mind and we know more. So we're going to do better because we know more. And it was like wow, if somebody like that can change there, because that was his whole thing and that's what he was known for and I don't know him personally, but I remember that was really important when I was 14, to get that book, you know, yes, he that's. I'm really glad that people can see a different path. They've just now debunking the fact in horse herds that there's an alpha. You know the alpha and we've got to be dominant. That's all shifting too, so it's not just dogs and then with cats there's never been an alpha.

So us cat owners have learned, and we know that from way back, you know. Yes, because they're not completely domesticated yet so no, and which is so wonderful, they choose to be with us. But yes.

Okay, so then what? What do you recommend then for our listeners if they have a dog and they you know that from your book and they recommend they get your book, visit your website, all those things, but uh, how do we find a trainer that is going to be? Um, help us be clear enough so that we can understand how we can change our behavior so we can help our dog.

Well, it's really difficult and that's why I wrote that book, because there's so much alphabet soup out there and people claiming this and that, and if you get with somebody who's very charismatic they can sell you on. You're supposed to buy this collar and you're supposed to be an alpha and take charge and Remember that TV show.

I won't mention the name, but there was a TV show that was very popular and I'm watching it. I'm just going mm. Yeah, you know it was like because he was successful.

He was very charismatic. But if you push mute and watch the show, it's a completely different experience. And watch the behavior and shut off the language of the, it's a bit of smoke and mirrors. You know, kind of Right Right.

Yeah, person has to be discerning, right? Yeah, go ahead.

If it doesn't feel right, if if what you're doing is working by causing fear or pain, then it's not considered science based modern dog training. So it should be based in animal learning, which is applies to any species horses, cats, dogs, snakes, birds, any species, humans. It's all based on animal learning.

You know, if I give you something you like, you're going to do more of what you're doing. If I take away something you like, you're going to do less of what you're doing, and I don't have to make you afraid or feel pain to get you to stop doing something. I can use the way we know that animal brains work to modify behavior.

Well, humans are animals, and so the principle applies, because no one learns anything when they're frightened. I mean, how can a child learn if you're shouting or hitting? There's no learning going on there, they just learn to be afraid. Yeah.

They shut down.

And they shut down the horses. Same thing. I'm applying what I've learned to my sheep, because they're mammals as well, and the common signals with horses, because they're herd animals as well, matches what with sheep and my sheep are really tame because I love them beyond words. It's hard to explain, but too. But it's so much fun to apply what I've learned to through the horses to the sheep for the same kind of watching, for the same common signals and the same behaviors and things like that. So all right, let's, let's continue this on. When I was looking through your stuff, I found the words humane hierarchy. Could you explain what that means? That's a new term for me.

So the humane hierarchy is a concept that we do the least disruptive thing to an animal In order to change their behavior. So the least or Lima is also a part of it which is least intrusive, minimally aversive.

Right, I wrote that down to least in I'm sorry least invasive, minimally adverse. Yeah, okay, so yeah, we've got to work those two terms and just clarify for us as much we appreciate it.

So say we go right to a choke chain. That's very aversive. There's many other things that we can do before that. So the idea is it's in layers. So first we might look at diet and the environment. So what kind of nutrition are they getting? What's happening in the brain as far as nutrition, and in the body? Are they in pain? Do they need some sort of pain relief or physical assistance, like physical therapy? Are they doing something? Because the way they move is contributing to the behavior? So the external stuff.

And then we start looking.

Yeah, and then we start looking at the environment. So how can I modify the environment to give you what you need? Because so often we put humans in the center of the universe. So how is all of this affecting me? But if we put the animal in the center of the universe, how is all of this affecting the animal? So it's kind of like what you said before. It's the if we look at it and this is a lot coming from working with children with behavior issues yeah Right, it's not. They're not giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time.

Oh, that's wonderful. They're not giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time. That's like, again, another shift of how you're viewing something Excellent.

Yes, and these are animals that have certain biological and behavioral needs based on their species. So horses have different needs than cats, have different needs than dogs, have different needs than children, and so often their environments are not giving them what they need. And then we see behavior problems, and most of it is, or typically a common thing is give them more exercise, which it used to be true, but they're getting a lot more now with doggie daycares and dog walkers. Although 50 cents a dog is not the rate anymore, so I was $50 a dog.

They could have paid me to walk the dogs. I just wanted to be around them so badly, yeah. But yeah, no, I see what you're saying. You're exactly right. So much of it applies to humans as well, and so we worked with girls that had adverse childhood experiences. The principles applied the same way, and that was a learning experience. And then, of course, we learned how healing animals are for helping regulate. So there's man. We could just go on for days about that. Yeah, that's pretty cool, okay.

Another thing we talked about, or what I've read about, was I'd like to talk about what your philosophy is when it comes to animal training. There's three things. One I'd like to learn about dominance, because we touched on that a little bit about adversives and punishment, which I think you spoke a little, and then rewards are positive. So you sort of touched on that. But we can run through that again. Why doesn't? Let's start, maybe, to ask that question why doesn't dominance work? Remember the days you'd hit a dog and he messes in the house and you hit him with a newspaper? I mean, logically, you go like, why would that make any sense at all? But why was stuff like that? Why didn't we know better?

Well, it was the same thing with raising children. You smack your kid if they talk back to you instead of understanding why are they talking back to you? What of their needs are not being met and how can we establish a better communication pattern? So when we're experiencing something we don't like, we want to stop it, we want to shut it down, and the fastest way to do that is with force. So I'm making you stop because you're afraid of me or because it hurts, and we think we're punishing the behavior. But the pet might not be experiencing that same connection. They may think they're being punished because you approached them. So it's not.

I'm not saying I'm the dog. I'm not connecting that you're hitting me with a newspaper because I pooped over there. I'm connecting that you walked into the room and hit me with a newspaper. So I'm being hit because you entered the room, not because of the poop. And then it starts to impact my relationship with you and I become fearful and I start to shut down. So punishment shuts down behavior. It suppresses communication, and so then I stop communicating with you and calm, submissive, is shut down. So I'm just not going to do anything because when I do something I get punished for it, and whenever you're around me, I get punished for it, and so that's why shock colors are just so emotionally painful to me, because we think we're punishing them for a specific behavior, but the dog doesn't necessarily know that.

I don't understand how they can make a connection Like if I cross it's just random, shocking, yeah. Like you know, like they learned that, okay, I walk over here like a boundary. You know I get the shock, but I just that's a hard one for me as well. I never really understood. Can you imagine putting that on a cat?

I just there are some people who do it, which is so disturbing.

Yeah, and you know so. Okay, for sure.

So it looks like it's working, because if you do something and I don't like it and I hit you with a two by four, you're going to stop doing that, but you're going to stop doing everything. But I don't notice you'd stop doing everything. I just noticed that you stopped doing what I wanted you to. So I think it's working. So it looks like it's working in the whole dominance thing. That was very sexy. It got into society very pervasively and effectively, because I think humans like being the center of the universe, they like being in charge. So it felt very good. It felt very I don't know what the word is confidence building, I'm not sure, but it felt to humans we're in control, because that's what we want.

Power is control. I'm in control of the money, I'm in control of the traffic, I'm in control of all the students in my school. So getting that, achieving higher and higher levels of power, so having power over these little creatures in my house, they're doing it because I told them to, that's power. But it's not communication and it's not benefiting the animal and it's based on the next study, which is based on wolves in captivity. So it was based on a flawed study and he knew it. So in the seventies he knew that this was incorrect. But that didn't catch on him saying there is no alpha, so that's a bit.

Yeah, let me start Go ahead.

We can't base how we raise dogs. So let's say it was true what he found, that wolf behavior is this way, which it is not. But let's just say it was. Dogs are not wolves. They're descended from wolves. So we don't look at how chimpanzees raise their children To see how we should raise our children. Even we're not descended from chimpanzees, but we have a common ancestor and Dogs have common ancestors with wolves. So in humans are more closely genetically related to chimpanzees than dogs are to wolves, so we have a stronger connection. So why are we not looking at chimps on how we should raise our children? Because we're different species. So how wolves act has nothing to do with how dogs act and On top of that, that's not how wolves act. They don't have an alpha. The study was done on wolves in captivity. An artificially creative, created pack of wolves Wasn't a naturally occurring pack of wolves. So if we studied humans in a refugee camp and said this is how humans behave, All humans do this?

No, humans in a refugee camp, under extreme stress, in an unnatural environment, with, without their needs being met. That's how they act. So that's how the study with the wolves was done wolves in an unnatural environment, without their needs being met, studying that behavior, so erroneous observations of Highly stressed animals, and then applying it to a completely different species Excuse me, species. It just wasn't correct. But it felt, it felt right and I think humans, just again, really like the power and they like being in control.

Wow, no, you, you have really nailed it. I'm just just, I'm a Missouri net, because there was a lot there. It was a wonderful analogy about the refugee camp, because that I can see it in my head. You know. So you have a really great way of communicating and so animals are lucky to have you because, oh, thank you, I'm taking in your information and just kind of go, wow, I hadn't thought of it that way. That's wonderful.

The same thing is happening with horses, because they they were studying herds of horses, of Mustangs and things like that. They were studying them, but they were, they were in confinement or, you know, unnatural horses have very little extreme under extreme stress, right. So in the, you know, in my opinion Horses are happiest domestic horses are happiest when they have companionship, access to food and space. You know. So People keep horses in different ways and we don't have to go into that whole big argument. I just know that mine really love the fact that they have companions, they're together. I don't have to worry like so what if they rough house a little bit and somebody gets their coat nipped up? I mean, they are content and happy and they luckily, luckily here in Wisconsin, you know, I have lots of space so they they're able to move freely and they can choose whether to be under Shelter or not. And then, of course, they have access to food 24 7, because their stomachs need that that horses are, they need to.

Be able to eat. They don't eat meals?

No, they need for it. So, anyway, I'm lucky that I can do that. Not every horse gets to live that way, but I know that, as a person that can feel animals to a point, I know that they're content. And when I walk into a different barn that might be wonderfully cared for, it doesn't feel the same. You feel the same way when you meet a dog. You can feel what has been his story. Yes, sure, you feel it, even more so because of your experiences. Okay, so Can we talk a little bit about help me out with the terms, because you're gonna know better than I like.

So our positive Training this is a big thing that's going on with horses right now.

But there isn't there a balance, because what you said about least invasive, minimally adverse up because, like we can't have dogs be able to Even like as puppies they nibble, right, so what? You know what's gonna be the, the approach that you're talking about. So when that puppy naturally teething, you know he's gonna want to bite your hands or a cat. For same principle, kittens do the same thing, baby horses do the same thing with horses were taught a good approach Is they want to connect, because with horses usually people push them away.

That you know you keep your space, out of my space, I'm done, I'm the boss. No, they, they were curious, they want to connect. So you put your hand like a hand. They were curious, they want to connect. So you put your hand like a catcher's mitt and you can encompass their muzzle. You keep your hands flat, pay attention, they can't bite you and then they get the interaction they need and you know you can build it. And then they do it less and less because it's a way regulating with horses.

How does that work with dogs? I was working with a puppy on set yesterday. It was four months old, so the teeth and the whole thing, and, um, naturally she wants to grab my hands and you know it hurt. Yeah, those little needle teeth, right and so, but she wasn't doing anything unnatural for her. So, using your methods, what would you recommend that someone do with a puppy? In that case, where she was excited and happy and playful and I wanted to keep that Because I don't want to have anything that makes her feel unhappy about being on set, you know, right, what would be an approach that you'd recommend.

Well, the biggest thing is what is the function? So what is the function of the behavior? What are they trying to get out of doing that behavior? So is she biting you because she wants you to go away? Or is she biting you because she wants to interact with you? Or is she biting you because she's teething and needs relief on her gums? So in one situation, if she wants you to go away, then we have to work on why. Why is she afraid? Why does she feel that way? In modify Her communication with you and train her to want to have you near her. And if it's for teething, then we'd give her teething items.

So changing the environment to set her up and she was quite content because I think that's really what it was. It didn't look to me like she was stressed, it didn't look to make she wanted to leave, she was just playing, you know, being a puppy, and that's all we asked of her. She didn't need to do anything but be a puppy. You know, when we were working on that, so you know, I had a chew toy and and it was like that's what I gave her and, and you know, got it to look at camera and everything was fine, right, but perfect. Um, but I hadn't. You know, you made a very good point Because I didn't think about it like a, is she doing it? Because a, b or c? Like what is? I didn't think of it at that moment. What is her behavior communicating to me? And anytime you?

interact with your dog. You're communicating with them, even if it's subconsciously, and they're communicating with you, which is why the answer to and I think this came from patricia mcconnell might be the first person I heard this from the answer to any behavior question is it depends. Oh, yes.

Yes, if you're familiar with horses at all, ray ray hunt and tom doors was through these big people that are Started to be able to communicate to other people their method or their, their principal Of understanding the horses, them. You know, what do you know? Do you have a question? And then about, and then you know I think it was tom dorrance He'd go. It depends. He wasn't a man of a lot of words, but uh, you know, it was like not everything. Every case is the same and not every horse is going to react in the same way.

So obviously, dogs, cats, you know, maybe, yeah, and if they're say they're biting you because they want to interact with you and they think that this is how we socially interact, because that's how they socially interact with other puppies by biting each other and play biting and wrestling, so that's normal for them but it's not acceptable as a way to interact with humans. So what they're getting out of biting on you is social contact, so that the quadrant thing with the r plus and the p negative and all that sort of stuff.

So r is reinforcer, or something that they want, um, it's enjoyable and it's designed to increase a behavior. And p is punisher, which is not necessarily aversive. Punishment means to decrease the behavior, so reinforces increased behavior and punishment is decreased behavior. Okay, and plus means add and minus means remove. So r plus is adding something that will increase the behavior, p minus is removing something that will decrease the behavior.

Okay, so Well, that's what we use with animal actors for sure, because obviously a cat's not gonna wear a halloween costume and pose for a Mott, you know, unless he's getting turkey, you know it has to be, because you know, um, we, I could always make a cat stay somewhere, but can I make him happy?

You know? You know it has to be, he has to want to be there and want to participate and play the game. And I choose them really carefully for that, because the temperaments, but turkey, you know, just is like the key and to like I am so happy to be here and uh, with cats you can't do a lot of Um.

Of course you can, you can gently push on their head and say, please, you know, but but there's not a lot of uh. You can't put a lot of negative energy into cats because they, they don't come up with it, they just they're like gone. Why would they? Why would dogs and horses and other domestics put up with an awful lot?

They really do like the stuff that we do to them just to make them comply to our Personal opinions and it's not necessarily fact, but our opinions about how they should quote unquote should or should not behave In one person's opinion might be different than another's person's opinion. So if you're working with a rescue animal, that pet might have learned that this is acceptable and now we're suddenly saying it's not and I'm going to shock you for it.

Or I'm going to yell at you or hit you for it.

Yeah, and. But I've always done this and this was okay in my previous home, so I learned how to communicate this way, this way. So let's say, your cat is on the counter and you squirt it with a squirt bottle. Squirt bottles should only be used for plants, that's it. Um, because that cat, like my cats, are allowed on counters and tables? I don't care, I mean for heavy snakes.

it's like they need to be up to be able to look down, especially look down on the dog because he's a lesser being. Yeah, but no, cats think about where they come from. They know they live in trees in the sense, like they, you know, move around high spaces to look down. That's when they feel safe because they're.

They're a prey species. They're predators. They're very effective predators, but they're also a prey species, correct, they're a combination of horses and dogs. They're they need to feel safe in their world, in an elevated space, which is usually above human hips. Height is naturally, biologically, very attractive to cats.

So if they don't have an option, yeah they're, yeah they're. You know, cover your butter, they're going to walk on the counter. Yeah, get on.

My butter has these weird little cat tongue groups in it. Yeah, so I don't even know a lot of butter.

We got a covered butter dish and the cat kept wanting to knock it off the counter. Now I have one of the. It's really heavy with a tight lid and it works. But it was just. You know. She broke all my fiesta where, like boom, knock it off the counter, get to that butter. So yeah, but cats will do that. So what's so? Either A you tell a person to live with cats walking on your counter or don't have a cat, or what is your answer to something like that? When someone says this like what's a problem for me? Not be might be a not a problem for you. Like people, people have this parent.

You know this view of the world, you know you know, yeah, and I one thing I have on my website I don't care if your dog is standing on the dining room table If you don't care.

I saw that. I loved it yeah.

But like I have a friend who teaches agility and her dogs are allowed on the tables because she doesn't want to suppress that, that's their job, yeah.

Yeah, and my opinion is, I wouldn't want my dog on my table, but if you're okay with it, I don't care. So. So people are often embarrassed to tell me that their dog sleeps in their bed or their dog is allowed on the couch because dogs aren't supposed to do that. That's not true. Dogs can absolutely sleep in our beds and absolutely be on our couches, if you're okay with it. If you don't want that to happen, we can modify that. So let's say, cats on the counter, making sure they have vertical options. So they're. What is the function? Are they doing it because they're bored and they want to look out the windows? Give them window seats.

Are they doing it because they want to feel safe by being higher up. Give them cat trees and then make them not make them, but convince them to choose that alternative. So what I often do is put a freestanding cat tree near the counter and then, whenever I see the cat on the counter, take them off the counter, put them on the tree and then reinforce that. So let them know. Whenever you're on the tree you get awesome stuff like turkey. So I'm going to take you off the counter and put you on the tree and then give you turkey.

That's very much like the limo the least invasive, the least adverse, without causing the cat a ton of stress. So that makes, and then we shape behavior. I mean, that's the banal actors, because we want them to be happy. I don't want them stressed, I won't do it, I don't want to do things that cause them anxiety, and with horses, causing anxiety is the main dangerous thing about them if they don't feel safe. So I really love that approach that least invasive, minimally adverse. That's great.

And it works. I work with cats and dogs that bite people or are peeing all over the house and I can achieve it without hurting them or scaring them, so it can be done. So if in sometimes I work with a case that I can't fix it, I'm going to refer it to somebody who's better than me because it can be fixed. So if you're working with a trainer and they say it can't be done without scaring them or hurting them and they're not going to use those words, they're going to say control or stimulus that's the nice euphemism for shock collar.

It's pain, it's not a stimulus. It works on pain. So if they tell you it has to be done that way, then they're not current on modern training techniques and they're not skilled enough to do it with reward based techniques. And I've had cases in the past where I was not skilled enough to do it and referring them to somebody else who is more skilled than me and being humble enough and having humility to say I'm just not good enough or skilled enough to do this. I can refer them to someone else. That is, I think, the sign of a true professional that can say maybe it's me, maybe it's not the technique.

Oh, absolutely no. I mean, in my own case I'm learning. I have always been pretty intuitive with my dogs and cats and animal actors, right, but I've been ignoring the horses as far as understanding them in the same way. So I've had this journey over the last couple of years of discovering people like Warwick, Schiller and others understanding those principles of having the horse be regulated, having him be in a state of safety. And I never applied, I didn't hurt my horses like that, I just didn't spend a lot of time doing any of it because they came trained and they were not shut down but they were accommodating. But then I got three horses, three Morgan mares.

I have Morgan's Morgan horses from Montana, from the Montana range, and so they came off the range for where they could see for miles, miles and miles and were minimally handled because they're youngsters.

They were minimally handled to Wisconsin, where I'm in a rural area, but they still their sight line, like if you put them in the barn they can't see the horizon. And the one mare that was a little bit older had a lot of anxiety about the fact she couldn't see the horizon and it just took me a while to understand that that's what it was. But now that I've you know over time and patience and learning how to regulate my own emotions, learning how to be completely present with her and also understanding what you were saying, what are her needs? She needs to see the horizon. She needs to feel that the other horses are nearby. She needs you know, all those things. I've got to the point where I get. She's so relaxed and we're able to keep moving slowly to the next step because eventually we'll train her to ride. She's four years old, so she's just coming to the age where we would start back in here. But there it takes as long as it takes and there's no but the thing is about.

What I wanted to get to was I have a trainer who's helping me because I am not capable of starting this young horse and I need help. And I found her. She's on a prior podcast on the podcast prior to you because she uses what you're talking about the least invasive, mentally adverse I didn't she didn't call it that, but that exists exactly what she's doing. And then all the positive rewards and encouraging the behaviors you want. The main thing is making the horse feel safe and not progressing until the horse feels safe, because we need to stay safe and we can't be safe If the horse is anxious. Either he's going to shut down or he's going to explode, or a shut down, then explosion can surely happen.

And I bet the same thing can work with a dog. A dog can be shut down. Then all of a sudden bite the neighbor kid and you're like what?

happened.

And then it's like bad dog. No, you know, something wasn't, something wasn't being met.

So yeah, I had a case with a. It was a beautiful chocolate lab and he was not getting along with neighbor dogs. So their trainer put a shot collar on him and he would get shocked whenever a neighbor dog came near him. But, as it turns out, if you look at the bigger picture, which is your trainer should be asking you about what your pet eats, how much exercise they get, medical history, and looking holistically at the big picture, the dog wasn't not getting along with neighbor dogs. He was resource guarding and he was saying don't come near this area or this thing, and so he was learning, when he communicated with the other dog, growling or snapping at the other dog, that he would get shocked. So he stopped. And then one day he was on the couch and the family had a child, who was three at the time, walked near the couch and the dog was guarding geographic space and he didn't growl, he didn't snarl, he did nothing and he just nailed the kid right in the face because he had learned don't growl, don't communicate.

Snap gets you shocked. Growling gets you shocked.

So he had no connection to like you can't like resource guard. He never learned, he never figured out, shape that behavior. He just learned that if I'm going to bite somebody, I have to do it without these, these signals to warn somebody. I had never thought of it that way. That makes perfect sense.

There's a meme or a quote that is on social media a lot. Punishing a growl is like taking the batteries out of a smoke detector it's the warning. You're not dealing with the behavior when you punish a growl. You're only dealing with the outward expression of the feeling. You're not dealing with the actual feeling itself. So I can't put the batteries back in once that happens. I can't reteach a dog how to growl.

So that dog no longer growl. The expression we use with horses is what happened before, what happened, what happened before what happened. And if you've taken away the horse's ability with her ears, her lip, her expression, you know turning to you to say like I'm not comfortable, I might, you know, kick or bite, you're not paying attention to what's happening. That's making the horse want to behave that way. Or a cat Cat warns you, tail starts moving. Cat warns you Says enough, no more stimulation Done being pet. And then you get nipped and you go why'd you bite me? You know, you, just you know, really, really need to give animals a voice and that's what you're doing. So I'm grateful for that.

And especially with cats, because so often I hear well, my cat only wants to be pet on their terms and the only thing I can think is yes and yeah, right, so you can't just, you can't walk up to a if you're, you know, a person on the street.

You can't just run up to a stranger on the street and grab them and say, you know, will you come to lunch with me, I really like you, and start putting your hands all over them. You know, that's gonna kind of freak them out, you know. So you know the. With animals I'm always careful Even they're super friendly to approach and retreat and to like let them, let them see me, smell me, get to know me, you know, so that we can build a bond and work together. With a child, you know, even a child, I'm not gonna run up and grab a child, I'm gonna get down on the level and I'm gonna communicate softly. And I learned, you know, if you turn your head away from a baby and then bring your head back and their eye line and back and forth, the baby is gonna like be, oh my goodness, you know, and they're gonna want to be even more curious about you and feel safer. Just humans, right? You know? Yes, so children, animals, puppies.

It's all creatures kindness feels good.

I love how you said that kindness feels right. Okay, well, um.

A big thing is consent and control. So giving them control, and it's not control over you, it's control over themselves. So control over what happens to me. I have a say in what happens to me, which I think any sentient being should have and Consent. I give you permission to touch me or interact with me. So letting a cat know I'd like to pet you, can I pet you here, and let them know that your hand is coming, and then you know your hand is here and then they rub up against your hand, that's them giving you consent and I don't see why that's not okay. I think it's okay for any species if I don't want to be touched, don't touch me exactly and that's acceptable If you allow them to be a sentient being, which they are there's no petting sheep unless they want to come up and be pat.

I mean, yeah, people don't think about them that way so much. Especially there's a big herd. Mine come up and they want to be pet and I know all their secret scratching spots, you know underneath their armpits and like you know behind their ears and stuff like that. But it's interesting, if I have someone come, they'll come to me because they're my babies. Right, there's only seven, so it's not like a huge flock.

But I bring a stranger in and you can tell right away by the demeanor of the stranger Whether the sheep feel safe enough to approach.

Because if the stranger just comes and I say, especially children, I'll say, okay, we're gonna sit down and we're gonna be really still and quiet, let's take some nice deep breaths and they're gonna be curious and they're gonna come over and and by tell you, children are just so Excited when this works and I and I say, no, when he comes to you, let him just smell you first, because these aren't aggressive animals, I don't have to worry, right, and let's put your hand out now, take your hand away, put your hand out, take your hand and the sheep just go like, oh, okay, okay, these kids are cool and then they get to pet them and it's pretty fun. But if you walk in, they're all business and you're standing up, you know, and you're like hovering over them. Anything hovers over them or you know that's. You're gonna make them want to go away and it's a completely different energy and it would take a lot longer for them, if at all, to come around that person you know, so Be being kind feels right.

Being kind is, you know, with every species, every sense and things, just like you said, so that Understanding.

Each individual is an individual. So my other cat would let me do that. Okay, but that was your other cat. That isn't this cat. This cat has different genetic Content in different behavioral history. So you have to work with the animal that's in front of you, not the one that you remember from your childhood or the the other Golden retriever that you had. That's not the golden retriever that you have now. Each in the animal is an individual and they need to be treated as an individual. So if I have a good relationship with this woman, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm gonna have a good relationship with that one, because each woman is different, each man is different. Each cat, each dog, each horse, every individual creature is its own creature and you have to work on the relationship with that animal, not with the species. It's a great individual.

Exactly. You find that positive builds on positive. That, yes, the more positive interactions, the more in general Unless they've been terribly traumatized, because we find those with people as well the more like, encourage what you want and then keep feeding that and then you'll get more of it. And the same thing happens if you, if you are Encouraging bad behavior by what you're doing, you're gonna get more of it. So you're building up what you want and I kind of ignore behaviors I don't want, as long as they're not dangerous to the animal or something you know. Like horses will paw because they're bored, right? Well, look at the environment. What's causing them to paw? Don't punish them for pying. Find out what's in the environment. You know that's causing the point and eventually, the more regulated the horse feels, that goes away. It's just not an issue. Same thing with the nipping it just goes away because you've made them feel regulated and in safe, whatever.

So well, this is my most behavior issues are a symptom of a bigger issue. It's this you want to treat the disease, not the symptom. So what is causing the behavior? And it might be oh, they have a thyroid issue or they're in pain. I have a client who's biting his owner because he has neck pain. So he's going to a neurologist and he's on pain medication. Well, lo and behold, the biting went away. Oh, exactly, wasn't a behavior issue, it was a medical issue.

No, I learned that. I learned that early on by experience. I was working on set and I normally now I audition every dog. I know every dog that comes. I know every dog personally. You know, I'm about what. Our director wanted to use their dog. We now have a rule about that. No, no, no, they wanted to use their dog and it was a Rhodesian Ridgeback and so it was a fine dog as far as temperament, you know like, got along fine and he's fine. She was on a dog bed and I needed to shift the position of her hips, you know, and so I kind of shaped her and this and I gently touched her hip to just move a leg, you know, and she came up and I felt the wolf of her, of her teeth, like she could have tore my face off if she wanted to. It was a warning.

It was like you know Something again, and this is what's gonna happen.

So and I that never in all my years of business I'd probably you know long, long time, because I started way back that it never happened. A dog trying to, you know, warning me of a bite, right and and I just kind of taken it back and I had to stop and think and like, okay, whatever my other training that was with me went, oh, look at her, think about it. I said it and she said to the owner has she had trouble walking? Is there something going on? Something's wrong with her hip, something's wrong that was. That was a pain thing. That was because and I didn't touch her heart or anything like that it was just she was afraid that it was going to get painful by where I was, by just proximity, and it was completely Related to that.

And so then they took her to the vet, found out his hip dysplasia. So you know, it was never the dog's fault, it was just the human's not seen and understanding where the pain was coming from. And so now when I, you know, I learned that I'm gonna talk to an owner, you know I auditioned the dog, so I'm gonna know the dog and see if there was any health issues that I need to be aware, you know, oh, there's something that she doesn't like his ears should not touch his foot. You know, is there something I need to know so that I can be fair, right, yeah?

yeah.

I learned. I learned that like check first physical, you know physical first. Same with horses saddle doesn't fit, it's uncomfortable, chiropractic issue, you know, those are all things. Immediately you go to first because if they're uncomfortable it's gonna come out. You can't work with a terrible headache, you know.

You can't work if your arm is broken, I'm not gonna be in a place to receive the information that you're giving me, process it and remember it and then function within the parameters that you've given me. An animal.

If I feel comfortable, I can write, but animals are so stoic you got to really pay attention.

Yeah, and cats really don't communicate Medical feelings no, they communicate in different ways. So like if your cat is peeing on your bed, usually that means they're asking. They're communicating with the person that they're bonded with. I'm peeing on your bed not because I'm mad at you, but because I'm asking you for help, and I'm peeing on the spots that smell like you because there's something wrong. I might be stressed or I might have a medical issue going on, but they're always communicating. It's never random.

That's, that's what that behavior is, the behaviors communicating, for sure.

Absolutely oh.

This has been pretty Informative, I think our audience, our audience is gonna just really absorb a lot. You have just a great way of communicating complex principles, because I was. I'm a simple person and so when you're able to put it into language that I can understand, it's a great benefit. We're coming to the part of the show that we call cake break or pie time or whatever it is, so I don't know if you can see, but I got really nice piece of chocolate.

Yeah, we're all gonna. If you were here, we'd be definitely sharing that, and that means that we're gonna get to the questions that I sent you. When I do a podcast, I send out an intake form, which you filled out, thank you, and we ask we give you a series of like 20 questions and then you're able to pick from those five questions that you would like asked. This is an idea that we borrowed from work. Sheller is a horse trainer. I mentioned before Horse advocate and he borrowed it from Tim Ferriss's book A tribe of mentors. So just want to give credit for credits, do here and so the questions that I want to ask you, the ones you picked. One of them is what is the most valuable thing that you put your time into that has changed the course of your life?

I would say my education, whether it's formal education, in school or on my own, reading, taking courses or experience and going out and practicing the things that I've learned, and because sometimes you learn by doing and I can, and I know there's a lot of trainers out there that know everything theoretically but they can't actually do it, they can't apply it. So I think that's part of education, so getting the information from different ways and then practicing. So I think education for any person, regardless of what you're working on, is an important thing to shaping who they are as a person and shaping their career.

Oh it's impacts how I interact with people and with animals just on a daily basis and in my own home. So the way my cats interact with me is very different than my first cat. It's a completely different relationship.

Oh sure, but sounds to me that you've always been curious, which is the most amazing trait, because that leads to education and learning, and so I mean I can see that, and that's that's wonderful. The next question is what accomplishment are you most proud of and why?

That's a good question. I would say it's not like a formal accomplishment, but I had a stroke about a year a year ago, january Wow. And overcoming that, I think, was my greatest accomplishment, because I couldn't walk, I couldn't talk, and Learning how to do that again. And now I'm doing cross fit and I can talk again. So, like, this side of my face is a little bit droopy but I going to therapy to work on that. It took me about a year, a year and a half, to get fully back and mentally getting that back. So practicing, rebuilding those neural connections and physical connections and being able to move my arm again, because that's like devastating.

That's a whole nother podcast we're going to have to come back because I mean, that is an amazing thing and it takes what it takes. You know it takes as long as it takes and healing of any form you know always takes longer than we want. You seem extremely resilient that you've been able to come, and I bet the animals were a big help in that healing process, absolutely.

I had my cat snuck into the hospital.

I've done that. I brought one to my niece before they allowed therapy animals and you know I snuck her up the elevator, this kitten. So because, yeah, because animals really, really help, I do. I think we have to come back and do a whole nother episode about that, because people can relate to that and that I didn't know. That that's that. I'm glad you're on the mend. That's a great thing, thank you. But that's a huge accomplishment Staying alive. Yeah, you know, pulling through, yes, it's different, letting my brain kill me.

That was a good accomplishment.

Exactly and everything is different. I'm sure it's different, and so getting used to different is a whole battle in itself.

And accepting the new me was very difficult.

I can imagine, especially since your sense of curiosity, your, your intelligence, your, you know education, being able to retain all that and feeling like you might lose that must have been devastating.

Yeah, it was very difficult.

Can we please come back and have another conversation about that, because I do feel that that would be a really good subject that people can understand. Okay, what is? Oh, I always love this question what is the worst advice given in your profession or bad idea that you hear of in your field of expertise?

Dominance, being dominant to your dog. So dogs form packs. The exact same way families are formed amongst humans. So it's not necessarily genetically related. It's individuals who enjoy the company of each other, and members of the group come and go. So humans form friendships and relationships and you know your chosen family, or perhaps your biological family, and some family members come and go and friends come and go, and that's how dogs form their families. So they don't have like two leaders and then a nice little lined up ducks in a row hierarchy of other dogs in the group. They have individuals and they communicate cooperatively, so they work cooperatively. You're in charge of dinner, I'm in charge of laundry, so with dogs one might be in charge of raising the puppies and one might be in charge of getting food, and this one helps get food and this one defends the territory. They have different responsibilities and those responsibilities shift between individuals. So there's not a dominance hierarchy. They are equal individuals that share responsibility for the health and well being of the pack.

Okay, there you go For sure. What quality do you admire most in people?

I think kindness To common theme with our animal people.

It's a common theme.

In two animals, and to the environment, to yourself, to other humans, in just doing something that doesn't cause harm by choice, even if it's more difficult for you.

For sure. I think it was Victor Franco who said something to the lines Our job is to end suffering whenever we can. But if we can't end the suffering, we can't add to it. The world would be a lot better place if we could always follow to that. Okay, and then what have you become better at saying no to?

I would say giving away free services.

You got to pay your bills. I mean in the end.

This is my job. I find, when I give free services, those that advice is very rarely heated, so like if I go to family functions like Thanksgiving or something. Okay, now everybody's going to ask me, all the big my cats not using a litter box, you need to do this, this and this. No, I'm not going to do that. Okay, well, try this. No, I'm not doing that. What? Are you asking me.

Yeah, it's like the doctor, you know, like they ask the doc, you know the doctor goes somewhere, or dentists, or I get asked all the time because I'm an animal actor trainer, and what about my dog? And I'll go like well, I could train him on set. That's all I know, because I do know more of it, but I don't have to go into it. I recommend, you know you might want to try this, this person, this place, this, you know, whatever. So I totally get that.

Yeah, and when I travel I don't tell anybody what I do. I say I'm an administrative assistant at an accounting firm, because nobody asks that person questions. You're undercover.

I love it. I love it. Okay, so where can we find your book fetching the perfect dog trainer and getting the best for you and your dog? Where can we find?

that you can find that on Amazon or through the publisher, which is dog wise, so dog wisecom.

Okay, we're gonna have all these notes on the, on the links, you know, on the podcasts and things like that. There'll be links to your website and Facebook page and where we can find your book and things like that. But what would you like to? Is there anything coming up that you'd like to tell? I mean, this podcast will live forever, we hope. So. Timing maybe, and maybe not so much, but like in general, okay, somebody wants to contact you, wants to work with you, wants to have you come speak at something because you're really eloquent, wonderful speaker. I'd recommend anybody that wants because, like I said, you can take complex things and break it down to levels in entertaining interesting.

I don't feel stupid talking to you Sometimes when I talk to people that are really smart, I feel kind of dumb, like I'm just not getting it, but you explain it in such a way that I can understand, so I'm grateful for that and I bet our listeners are too, thank you. How do we, how do we get in touch with you, how do we find you? What, what, what's the process?

Go to my website, jonesanimalbehaviorcom. So if you need help with your pet, there's resources there, or I can help you or I can refer you to somebody who can help you. Or if you're looking for, like I do, sessions at vet clinics or shelters and trained shelter staff and volunteers or at community events and just talk about general animal behavior or dealing with dogs or dealing with cats, so I do events through my website or an article for whatever publication.

So there's a lot of a lot of information on the website. You can just spend a lot of time reading what she's shared up there from even other people and facts and things. So there's a lot to. There's a lot to take in. You've done a it's, it's a great service. I think the world is better for it. I think the pets are better for it. So appreciate that. Well, this has been really fun. Oh, you know, before we go, I should mention you mentor other animal trainers and that's really important. Yes, I'm sorry, I'd like I want you to speak just a little bit about that, please.

I do one mentorship through IAABC, which is the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants, so I do a mentorship through them and I also do a mentorship through my friend has a consulting business called Ipacampus online and I do a mentorship for if somebody's thinking of becoming a cat consultant or is working as a cat consultant, helping them work through different cases and connecting them with other cat consultants. So we share cases with each other and discuss well, I have this weird. Have you ever seen this? Okay, usually it's one of us have seen something like that. Or I found this product. What do you think of this? Oh, I know that company don't use that product, or yeah, that product is great.

So it's not so up here in network. A way of helping each other, that's great, yes, which then, of course, helps the animals. So well, this has been a really informative, wonderful time with you today. Katina really appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thanks for thanks for taking the time, and I'm sure people will look up things and learn things, and that's what this show is all about. You're a perfect fit for the empathetic trainer and we thank you again for coming.

Thank you so much for having me and for offering this podcast, because I think it's a wonderful resource for people and empathy is probably the most important thing that we can do for our pets, so I think it's a great thing to have. So thank you for offering that.

Well, thanks right back. Perfect. All right, I'm just going to jump on in here real quick Now. It was a really great conversation.

Oh good.