Tiffany Stauffer - Give Them the Right Tools and Let Your Horses Think for Themselves - S1 E8

Barbara O'Brien: 0:00

Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien and welcome to The Empathetic Trainer. Today's guest is Tiffany Stauffer from Grace and Grit Horsemanship, Wilson, Wisconsin. Thanks, Tiffany, for coming today. We appreciate you making the trip down to the farm on this rainy day, but we're glad to have you.

Tiffany Stauffer: 0:16

Thanks for having me. It's nice to come out and seeing the colors change in the trees. It's a pretty drive out here. You have beautiful place.

Barbara O'Brien: 0:23

That's the nice thing about Wisconsin is that at least the seasons change. A couple months will be complaining about the weather. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 0:30

Oh exactly. 

Barbara O’Brien: 0:31

This is a great time of year. Well, anyway, I'm really glad to have you come and we want to just talk about kind of like how it started your love affair with horses. It’s obvious you have a love affair with horses. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 0:43

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 0:44

And I think you've had a pretty interesting journey because you're a young person and I think that's wonderful. But already in your young life you've a lot of accomplishments already, so I'm pretty impressed by that. But I knew you when you were a child because I knew your mom and you always had a knack of special gift with horses. That was evident when you were like six, seven, eight years old. How your ponies really liked you. That was really cool to watch. And so why don't we start way back there? I want to tell me about like deep were you born like this or did love realization that you loved horses? You know how did that even come about?

Tiffany Stauffer: 1:23

I mean I think I was pretty much in love with horses from day one. I mean they used to joke, they would sit me up on the horse before I could ever stand or anything and they would take me off and I would start screaming. I mean I just loved, I was infatuated, I would just sit there and play with their mane. And so is, I mean, very much from day one. And I was lucky enough, I did grow up on a small hobby farm, so I've never known a life without horses, so that's been pretty, pretty special. And hey, hey he likes to eat my shirt.

Barbara O'Brien: 1:51

Yeah, the kittens are like that. Yes, Iris and Marigold are joining us today.

Tiffany Stauffer: 1:56

They're super friendly and  cute. 

Barbara O’Brien: 1:57

Until they get to be too much trouble. We'll have some kittens, because they really just want to be here.

Tiffany Stauffer: 2:03

Yes, so you know, that's kind of how I got started and my mom was my mom was definitely the horseman and took on some training horses and and like that. So, I was had the opportunity of learning kind of the training aspect of it pretty soon. But there's nothing I enjoyed more in life than just getting to spend time with my horses. And looking back now I think it's because it let me be very present in in the moment and not worrying about all of the other things that were going on. So that was, you know, something very special I could get on my pony and there was a you know a route I was allowed to take away from home by myself and so just to get on and like get on him and just go escape the rest of the world. So that was very much my Therapy in in a lot of ways, and so I had the opportunity growing up to continue that and then, yeah, I got to start showing very young. 

Barbara O'Brien: 2:57

So, when you started, I want to go back to being a child. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 2:59

Yeah.

Barbara O’Brien: 3:00

Right, and every horse girl can really have a horse. Person can relate to that. When you say being present, you know which is a lot of self-awareness for a child if you think about it. You know, like every other family, there's always stuff you know, and growing up, there's always stuff right, and so a lot of times you know people, when they go out to be at the horse, they're bringing all that stuff with them, right, and that can, that can be good in a way that at least if you're honest with your horse I'm feeling this today, you know, like I talked to mine, but that took a while to get to that point. Most of time it was let's just stuff that down and, you know, try to be the not with it, but what sounds like at an early age you learn to let things flow through you and be present with the horse like let not bring it or not hide it does that make any sense, like you weren't. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 3:51

Like they would melt away? 

Barbara O’Brien: 3:53

Yeah, that’s what I'm trying to get. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 3:54

Working through the emotion, you know I would, and there were a lot of days I would just go out and cry with my horse, so it's not that I didn't bring it. There were days where I would just go and like process things with them and sit with them and like just hang out with them. 

Barbara O’Brien: 4:08

Yeah, that's exactly 

Tiffany Stauffer: 4:09

And by the time I did get on and go somewhere, or we went out and did something, I didn't have to worry about that stuff anymore.

Barbara O'Brien: 4:13

So, at an early age. How old are you about when you're thinking about like this? 

Tiffany Stuaffer: 4:17

Oh, I was probably maybe six or seven by the time I was able to kind of go out by myself. 

Barbara OBrien: 4:24

Right. So, at an early age you learned how to be what's really important with horses present and you learn the healing value of horses.

Tiffany Stauffer: 4:29

Yes, I mean, and that's that's one reason I really stick with and I would love to have some sort of a therapeutic center down the road is because I think horses are very healing and I would like to share that with other people to some capacity, because I think a lot of people don't understand how therapeutic they really are in a lot of ways. So that's you know, and I'm sure other animals are the same way, but my horses are my passion for sure, 

Barbara O’Brien: 4:57

Absolutely so how old were you when you started showing? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 4:59

Oh, oh, probably four or five. 

Barbara O’Brien: 5:03

Wow. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 5:04

So, I was pretty young, and I had a little pony at the time. I was joking taught me how to fall before he taught me how to ride. There were a couple horses I rode before him, so I grew up riding on Duke, who's an old, like 30-year-old been there, done that kind of horse. And then I had another one named Chip, who was my dad's old horse. So, by the time I started riding him probably in his 30s as well. And then when I was two, they bought me a two-year-old Welsh pony. And so, you know two and two, you know there's the 

Barbara O’Brien: 5:33

Black and blue.

Tiffany Stauffer: 5:34

Yes. But you know, and looking back now it's probably not the safest thing and might be frowned upon, but I it taught me a lot. So, when I started showing it was primarily with him and then I did graduate to some horses. I think I was probably closer to around eight before I got an actual horse that I started showing. So started the local stuff. You know, started with the, the local saddle clubs and 4-H. 

Barbara O’Brien: 5:59

And what discipline were you showing in early on? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 6:02

Everything. So started out with like the timed event kind of games stuff. Did some Western pleasure.

Barbara O'Brien: 6:08

Okay, so just for our audience that may not be familiar with these different disciplines, if you could just briefly describe, you know a timed event versus a pleasure class in you know Western, like what gear we're using? Western saddles, kind of keeping in mind that some of our listeners may not be familiar.

Tiffany Stauffer: 6:25

Yeah, within the like, the pleasure shows or classes, there's usually showmanship, which is an in-hand class where we, you know, run next to the horse on the ground, and then your Western and English pleasure classes are primarily judged and Focusing on, you know, the cadence, the correctness, all of that within the gates that you need to be riding. And then there's also some pattern classes, so how well you can execute a pattern on your horse in both winglet English or Western attire. And then the, the timed event stuff is more like your rodeo. So, you know, we had the barrel racing and then there was several other patterns that were were also timed, and so it was just running against a clock as opposed to competing underneath a judge.

Barbara O'Brien: 7:06

I think I remember you bear racing really young.

Tiffany Stauffer: 7:09

Yes, yes, and then I I got into, I did some reigning and then I got into rodeo, and I did that for a while and then got into the breed show stuff and did some hunter jumpers.

Barbara O’Brien: 7:20

What was the breed of horse that you were working with? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 7:22 

At that Primarily quarter horses at the time. So, I did start out with my pony and then then went to quarter horses and have stuck with them up until I mean primarily up until recently and I started diving into some other breeds.

Barbara O'Brien: 7:35

Yeah, some of the Iberian breeds. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 7:37

Yes.

Barbara O’Brien: 7:38

So that was. Was he an Andalusian horse? I’m trying to remember. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 7:39

Yeah, he was an Andalusian.

Barbara O'Brien: 7:41

Yeah, okay, well, that's cool. So, did you find it hard to keep up with everything? Or was this a passion and it didn't like? You know, I'm gonna go do my schoolwork and then I'm gonna go outside do our chores, because there's always chores of horses, and then I'm gonna Just I'm gonna ride and get better and better, because you were really competitive and really white talented. You still are, but I mean, as a child you know you were getting to pretty high levels in the national, you know, show world very competitive. You always struck me as a young person that just put in the work.

Tiffany Stauffer: 8:14

I did, and so it was a lot of work, and my brother wasn't nearly as much into the showing. So, when I was 10, my parents had divorced and so it was primarily my mom, you know, taking my brother and I, and you know she, she couldn't support my brother doing it. But you know, for her being, you know, doing it with just one parent, she couldn't just leave my brother. So, she's like, well, you have to, your brother has to come with and so I would have to pack his stuff, get his horse bait. You know it's like so not only.

Barbara O'Brien: 8:43

He’s a younger brother, so he needs a little help.

Tiffany Stauffer: 8:44

Yep, and he wasn't as into it, so it wasn't his thing, and he didn't really want to put the time and effort into it. So, you know, the stipulation was, if I wanted to go, I also had to help get him there, because it had to be a family thing, so it wasn't just me. So it was, yeah, a lot more work and I was more than happy to do it day in and day out. Anything horse related, luckily, school I went to a small school and school came relatively easy so there wasn't much of a time commitment there. But, yeah, I would breeze through school and just want to spend time with the horses.

Barbara O’Brien: 9:16

For sure. We should be fair to your brother to say that that you two are really close and that he's a big help.

Tiffany Stauffer: 9:21

Yes, now and yes, now he's. He's definitely helped me a ton.

Barbara O'Brien: 9:27

And he likes horses. Still.

Tiffany Stauffer: 9:28

Yes. 

Barbara O’Brien: 9:29

And because I, of course, I know him, he’s a great guy.

Tiffany Stauffer: 9:31

Yes, he does not, he doesn't, he doesn't have horses, so he didn't you know kind of follow. He didn't have the same passion for the horse.

Barbara O'Brien: 9:36

Yeah, that's understandable.

Tiffany Stauffer: 9:38

But yeah, he does, he comes and helps me a lot with with my guys and kind of the more marketing side and does a ton of pictures for me. 

Barbara O’Brien: 9:44

Yeah, beautiful, photographer.  

Tiffany Stauffer: 9:46

Definitely, yeah, more of the artsy minded which and very passionate as well, not the same thing that I was.

Barbara O'Brien: 9:53

I know that's great. I'm close to my siblings too and it's really a blessing to have, you know, family work with you and help you out. Who do you trust more. So, okay. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 10:07

What did she find? 

Barbara O’Brien: 10:08

What did you want me to do about this, too? What are they doing? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 10:14

I don't know. 

Barbara O’Brien: 10:15

Naughty, we should get a better-behaved cat. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 10:17

You might need a different species. 

Barbara O’Brien: 10:18

Some cat trainer. You know everything echoes on this floor. 

Barbara O’Brien: 10:23

Okay, that was pretty interesting. You graduate from high school. You've been showing on the national level. I remember you going to the world. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 10:31

Yes. 

Barbara O’Brien:  10:32

What it in Palomino?  

Tiffany Stauffer: 10:33

Yep.

Barbara O’Brien: 10:34

You went into the world. That's extremely competitive. You graduate from high school. What is Tiffany doing next? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 10:43

I was training quite a few horses my senior year and got a little burnt out doing it.

My mom had some health problems. So, kind of I stepped up and was training lots. I lost the enjoyment in it. I had decided in middle school I knew that horses were a big part of my life and they're expensive. I was a little bit worried about that. I was like well, I'm going to go to school, I'm going to be an engineer, I'm going to make a lot of money and build my horse facility, and then, you know, when I retire, I'll be able to have a therapeutic center because I'll have made enough money to sustain that.

Barbara O'Brien: 11:13

Wow. Okay, let me stop right there You're like 17, 18 years old, I'm going to go to college and get a degree in engineering. Not a mean feat. I mean, this is, you know, it's a. It's pretty amazing so that I can have a good living, so I can do my passion. I mean, I'm not a practical mindset, I mean that's cool. So, for this long-term goal of a therapeutic, which I truly believe you're going to get to, 

Tiffany Stauffer: 11:37

Oh yeah, I mean, I definitely will, I still have a lot of life left. 

Barbara O’Brien: 11:40

So, what happened? I mean that's that's very ambitious for… Of course. Now, you've always been a driven kid, so that's cool, but was it a little bit scary to like think about you know going to school and and just kind of pressure on yourself.

Tiffany Stauffer: 11:53

I think I was ready for a change. So, I ended up, at 17, I moved out to Golden Colorado which is on the west side of Denver. 

Barbara O’Brien: 12: 01

So, from Wisconsin to Colorado. How many miles is that? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 12:04

950 miles. So almost 1000 miles. I moved almost 1000 miles away; I knew nobody. 

Barbara O’Brien: 12:09 

I was gonna say, did you know anybody out there? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 12:10

Nope. Nope, I moved out, my mom had given me a trailer to take with the idea of selling it once I moved. So, I took my truck and my horse and moved out there at 17. And I had to board and did the school thing. It didn’t last very long. And I, I think I was board and did the school thing and it didn't last very long, and I think I was a couple months in and I went to buy a horse to train and sell. So, I couldn't just have one horse out there because I was like I'm just going to back off the horse thing and it didn't last.

Barbara O'Brien: 12:37

So, you had this thing in your mind I have to grow up, be responsible, do these grown-up things at least you had to have the one horse. You weren't horseless because you would die, because I went through that myself. So, I understand that. But then you were like, okay, I'm just going to focus on my school. But it wasn't enough.

Tiffany Stauffer: 12:55

No, no. So I went, and because a lot of times I would buy cheaper horses that didn't know a whole lot and give them an education, make them do something really nice and then sell them, and so I made a lot of money doing that. So, I did that. I started doing that through school, which I was never a fantastic student, but I did enough to get by. So, I went to Colorado School of Mines, and I did end up getting my degree in petroleum engineering all while flipping horses and towards the end it became boarding horses costed a lot, especially when I was keeping five at any given time. That was a lot to board.

Barbara O'Brien: 13:34

It's hard to make a profit if you don't have your own facility and you're boarding because you're just getting your trainer. Part of it it's hard to make a profit at all. Anyway, start there. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 13:44

It is. It's hard to make a profit in the horse industry. So, yeah, I had done that and then moved up. I moved a couple of different places and there's a lot of stories within that, but then I found this facility. I was able to kind of manage and keep my horses at cost.

Barbara O'Brien: 13:58

Oh wow, so this was in Colorado?

Tiffany Stauffer: 13:59

Yep. 

Barbara O’Brien: 14:00

Okay, are you in the mountains then?

Tiffany Stauffer: 14:02

Right in the foothills. So beautiful beautiful, I mean landscape, it was gorgeous.

Barbara O'Brien: 14:07

In what year of college are you at this point?

Tiffany Stauffer: 14:10

By the time I started kind of managing them, that was, I think, my fourth or fifth year. 

By the time I met them. So, my first year I had to be in the dorms because that is a requirement. And then my second year my mom had bought a condo somewhat close to the school, so I lived there for a year and then I managed a facility my third year and then switched facilities my fourth and fifth year. So, yeah, doing horses the entire time and got into it and so got a job as a. So, I got my degree in petroleum engineering and then, got a job as a transmission line engineer.

Barbara O'Brien: 14:47

Wow.

Tiffany Stauffer: 14:47

And worked for almost two years and it was during the pandemic, so we were working from home, remote, and I was living in a barn apartment at the time. So, I could hear people coming all day and getting their horses out and doing things. Like I could hear them. 

Barbara O’Brien: 15:03

And you're stuck at the computer. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 15:05

And I'm on the computer trying to work. And I was. I wasn't miserable, but I was very close to it, you know, it's just it was constant. It would make me really frustrated that other people got to do stuff like that and be out with their horse during the day, and it used to really aggravate me that I wasn't able to do that, and so the people I was living with at the time have definitely become some mentors to me at this point, and she always, from the moment I met them, was like you're at some point going to train horses, like she knew. Long before I was like I'm going to be an engineer, because that was before I actually got a job.

Barbara O’Brien: 15:35

An engineer can make a pretty good living.

Tiffany Stauffer: 15:36

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 15:37

So, it's a practical.

Tiffany Stauffer: 15:38

It was, and I'm a very, you know, methodical thing. You know it's like I want things engineered on paper, I want black and white, very logical approach to things, and so you know, they really were the ones that kind of pushed me in, and when I had the opportunity to leave and train horses, I was able to do that.

Barbara O'Brien: 15:59

Was it scary to step away from a solid income?

Tiffany Stauffer: 16:02

Yes, yes, that was. You know, the place that I'm at now is one of those things that was definitely meant to be. It was. It was super scary leaving a regular job and getting approved and having this huge mortgage for a big horse facility.

Barbara O'Brien: 16:15

So, you bought a horse facility. How old are you when you bought a horse facility?

Tiffany Stauffer: 16:17

Well, see. I'm 25 now and I've had it for two years, so 23.

Barbara O'Brien: 16:22

Okay, so this is the facility you're currently in. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 16:24

Yes.

Barbara O’Brien: 16:25

So, you move back to Wisconsin, 

Tiffany Stauffer: 16:26

Yep.

Barbara O’Brien: 16:27

Not too far from your hometown?

Tiffany Stauffer: 16:28

Correct. Because I could not afford…

Barbara O'Brien: 16:29

Sorry the cat is chewing on the mic.

Tiffany Stauffer: 16:32

I could not afford any sort of horse facility out in Colorado. I mean, the prices out there were insane, yeah. And so I had been looking for something that I couldn't train out of for a while, and the people I was working for I was a great, great company like I definitely nothing against them, I think they were fantastic but they had known that I was looking for something that I could train horses out of, and I just couldn't couldn't find anything that I could even get approved for out West. And my friend jokingly sent me my property in Wisconsin. She's like, ah, too bad it's in Wisconsin, because I had said I never wanted to move back. And so, yeah, I flew out, and it happened to be seven minutes from my dad's house, which is not where he was living when I grew up here. And so, I was like, well, if anything, I'll go, I'll check it out and see and visit him. And, yeah, the rest is history. He ended up, you know, putting an offer in working things out. There were a lot of pieces in the meantime that had to had to kind of go together in order to make it happen.

Barbara O'Brien: 17:30

Well, the banker must have been pretty impressed for you Twenty, twenty-four years old.

Tiffany Stauffer: 17:34

My company vouched for me that I still had a job. That was another thing too. They knew I was leaving, but at the time the mortgage lender called them. 

Barbara O’Brien: 17:41

Shhh… Don't say that… 

(Laughing)

Obviously, you've been making your payments. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 17:47

Yes, yes. I always joke. It's like, well, you know, how are you doing? I'm like, well, I haven't missed a mortgage payment yet. I still have still have everything. But it was, it was scary and, you know, definitely had to put the work into to kind of maintain that.

Barbara O'Brien: 17:59

This is where your brother came in.

Tiffany Stauffer: 18:00

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 18:01

I mean, I remember reading the post out. You know the help.

Tiffany Stauffer: 18:03

Yes, and then he came up quite a bit when I well and so he actually had been, I think he was in between jobs for a little bit when I had moved to, so he had a little bit more time and was super helpful, came up and helping. You know he'd show up on a weekend and he'd be like what do you want done this weekend?

Barbara O'Brien: 18:19

And so that was fantastic.

Tiffany Stauffer: 18:21

That's the best, and my dad was having a was working a job that was pretty remote at the time as well, so he was I mean, I had tons of help getting the place.

Barbara O'Brien: 18:29

Oh, and it's a big facility and there was a lot to do, and it did need some repair, and I remember that you know every horse facility everywhere always needs something. Well, that's, that's pretty cool. All right, so you move back to Wisconsin and you have a horse facility and so then you just start boarding and training. Is that the idea?

Tiffany Stauffer: 18:47

Yes, so I pretty much took training horses on from the start because I needed some kind of income and then started boarding horses because I also think it's kind of good to have some commotion around for training horses.

Barbara O'Brien: 19:00

Other activities, so horses can be used to things.

Tiffany Stauffer: 19:02

Other people and kids and you know, running around the barn and other horses loping in the arena and lots of different kind of stimulus almost. Because at the time I was getting a lot of colts and a lot of mustangs and more reactive horses. So, it was good to you know when I, when I'm working horses almost all day, I can choose when to work them, so I can work them when people aren't there or when they're ready for it. I can work them when people are there. So, yeah, I started boarding and and doing that. I actually started doing clinics. That was actually before I started looking for my own facility out in Colorado. So there was, there was that, so I had actually already been doing clinics before I moved.

Barbara O'Brien: 19:39

Let's talk about the clinics, because you have a unique offering and there's been a. Even in your lifetime there's been a huge shift or at least a movement towards a much more empathetic understanding, carrying approach to horses as to what they're thinking and feeling and how they're made, how their brains work, how their nervous system works. There's been a movement of trying to understand that better and be more in tune with that. Now, remember watching you. You had that all along and I don't think we have labeled it at that point. It was just kind of something that was in you, and it was. It's pretty cool, kittens being kittens. So what you're offering is, at least for most of the clinics that I've seen, is something called Liberty, where we're working with the horses at Liberty, and so if you want to explain to our audience what that means and how that's kind of a whole different way of approaching training with the horse really is consenting and wanting to be with you and doing these fun things versus other methods where there was much negative pressure and being constantly wanting to have released from a terrible negative pressure, not just normal pressure, of course, you're going to get a release. Please move over, thank you. You know that sort of thing. But we're much more in harsher bits. You know bigger spurs, you know all these kind of communication that is much more not as in my head, not as fair. So, I think that's a chance to think about what you're asking. You have a whole different approach along the lines of horse people that I'm trying to learn from and admire. You know Warwick Schiller, and, like Mary Corning, who was a guest, and Kerri Lake, who was a guest, and you have others that you were going to have you talk about because you get to go to a pretty exciting clinic coming up and I want to talk about that because you keep learning all the time. You get better, because you keep learning. But let's Take a breath here. I'm so excited about your clinics. Why don't you explain to our audience what that is?

Tiffany Stauffer: 21:35

Yeah, there's, and you know there's a million ways to skin a cat. So there's, there's a lot of different approaches to liberty itself, but in general the goal to me for liberty is to have a horse that's mentally engaged and so in tune with you, the really reading off of more subtle cues, and sometimes it's like, yeah, if we do up the bit or you know various things, a lot of times the horse can get a little bit more inside themselves and a little bit more shut down about what we're doing and get a little more monotonous and just kind of obedient, whereas I really really want to prioritize the horses kind of mental aspect of it and get them responding to me in a much more subtle way and sometimes, depending on you, know what kind of relationship the person has with the horse and what their goals are, we will actually start on a line and just kind of start getting that communication down and reinforcing. So, like you know a lot of the, we do use a lot of whips and they're not necessarily to whip the horse.

Barbara O'Brien: 22:35

No, of course not. Please clarify that because the word whip is a word that can bother some people that don't understand that. It's purely a communication to us and you're never hitting the horses with whips. I mean, let's just get that right out. There's no abuse going on here.

Tiffany Stauffer: 22:51

No, it's to clarify. So, I am only, and so I heard it mentioned at one point that that, as people were very vertical and our space is vertical, whereas a horse's space is horizontal.

Barbara O'Brien: 23:01

The way their eyes are on their head. Yes, the way their brain works.

Tiffany Stauffer: 23:05

By having a whip, I can extend my body to be a little bit more of a horizontal kind of being. So now I can, because, like you know, horses can. They can use their heads, they can use their back ends, whatever I can still clarify, you know, whether that's moving sideways or moving forward with a whip and just kind of touch them where I need to, whereas if I'm standing here, I can't necessarily be as clear about my communication or what I want.

Barbara O'Brien: 23:29

It's an extension of your arm. It just makes your arm that much longer so you can lightly catch their attention by moving it or, if you need, to brush them lightly with it. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 23:38

Yes. 

Barbara O’Brien: 23:39

And the horse can feel a fly. Yeah, so it doesn't need to be any force in that sense. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 23:43

No.  

Barbara O’Brien: 23:44

When you were helping me with my young horses, which has transformed. I've already been working on relationship for some time, but having clear communication is what I was lacking. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 23:53 

Yes. 

Barbara O’Brien:  23:54

The poor horses didn't understand what I was asking. I'm just starting to learn more and more about attune and getting in touch my my call my Montana mayors. They came from Westwood morgans out in Sheridan, Montana, and they're raising a big, big herd and so they understand horse body language really well. They also one of them was more concerned about being able to see all around her because when she was in a big herd in the big open sky, Montana, she could worry about you know, tie oats and things or what I don't worry about with warrior, but she would worry. And so, when I found I bring her in close spaces like a barn, she had a lot of anxiety. So, I've been able to work through that based on what I've been learning, and she's come around, but I still wasn't able to, until you came over and help me, I get her to understand where I want her to walk and where I want her to be in position to me and have her trust that it's going to be okay. So when you have a horse that has a lot of anxiety and she, you know, first of all, you know you can't just walk up to him with a whip in your hand and grab on their lead and just, you know, be like somebody walking you up on the street and grabbing you and go do this, you know he'd be a little concerned. And so, if you could explain your approach to how you helped me with her and she's still on a lead line but how that translates into the Liberty clinics which I'm going to be I'm going to one for sure when I get her trailer loading which is own. But if you can kind of remember that experience when we were working with Rita specifically the one that was more anxious about human contact.

Tiffany Stauffer: 25:27

Yep. So, you know, a lot of times too, it's like so she, she likes to be a lot more forward to and that can intimidate people and I would rather let the horse move and kind of get those feelings out and just feel the control, the direction. So, it's like we worked a lot on sending her each way and kind of using our body language to point in a direction and get her to go out. And then we did work a lot on stopping and kind of backing out of your space too. So, it's like we want to have you know, we got to build a communication somewhere. Getting her to start following your cues and your body language, and sending and controlling all of the direction kind of helps build the blocks for what the Liberty stuff does later. And then it's we change a little bit because she had a lot of draw, so she likes to be really close to you, and so when we talk about Liberty we have to balance draw versus drive.

Barbara O'Brien: 26:19

Right, because draw means that she can run me over.

Tiffany Stauffer: 26:21

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 26:22

And not be aware where her body is or not caring where her body is in relationship to me.

Tiffany Stauffer: 26:26

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 26:27

And if I back up, that's an invitation to come in. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 26:28 

Exactly. 

Barbara O’Brien: 26:29

And so, she's that's what you know to horse. That makes sense If I go towards her, that's an invitation. When we're at least being dynamic, when we're moving, that's an invitation to move. And being that, I've had some scary experiences with some you know much more, even more anxious horses before I knew better, and had gotten hurt. My instinct is to back up, you know like okay, fine, and then.

Tiffany Stauffer: 26:49

And then, yeah, a lot of times the backup, you know, and they actually get closer. So, if we're wanting to send them away and build some space between us, you know we have to be able to balance both of them. So, you know, she might be one that has more draw and wants to kind of crawl in your lap and be like take care of me, you know, or look to you for different things. They just have to learn to respect around it.

Barbara O'Brien: 27:11

So, I but respect in a good way, because not in the sense of I'm going to never interact. I think it's important that they're able to interact with their muzzle, with their you know like. But it has to be like this we're doing this together. Yes, you're not knocking me down. Yeah, that that job.

Tiffany Stauffer: 27:30

Like you're, you're reinforcement, you're put, you know whether it's praise, you're putting them, whatever you know you don't withhold that, but you kind of build your boundary. And so, with her we've been working a lot more on the drive side of things is hey, you're okay out there on your own and you need to kind of find a little bit of your own confidence. I'm right here, I'm not, you know, super far away. And then as her drive gets better and you can send her out, then we start balancing and bringing back in the draw. And so being able to balance them is what's going to give you your ability to leave your horse off of the lead drill, and if we add draw, they come back in. If we add drive, they can go back out but still stay mentally connected. So, there's a lot of buttons that you kind of have to put in place so that the horse understands what, what you're asking. So, like for you, we were working on driving and so we can have the whip that just helps push her out a little bit, so we can kind of show her what we want. We can also when we're working on the draw. It's the exact same thing that halter and Lee joke can kind of show them or clarify what I'm asking, and my whip will start being the cue, so I can start cueing with that whip and then I can show them what I want with the halter and Lee joke.

Barbara O'Brien: 28:38

Exactly I want to stress, knowing you working with you, something that happened when we were working together and it was such a learning moment for me, such a profound moment, because I was asking her to back up and it's not talking, okay, and I'm, I'm moving the, I have her hand, like this if you're familiar with horses I'm holding right a few inches underneath the shank of the lead ropes, underneath her chin, and I'm kind of in front of her a little bit and I'm asking her to go back, but I'm swinging the rope kind of veraciously, kind of like right, right, I'm not even saying. And she said you said to me so quietly, so gently no, no, no, you're shouting. Now I wasn't saying a word, but to the horse it was so much more energy that needed to be at that moment. It was confusing to her. She was. I could have been softer and asked her softer, because I wanted to respond softly. I don't want her to be overreactive and get worried, but the way I was going at it was like I'm not giving her a chance to process the question that I'm asking, which is please back up. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 29:38

Yes.

Barbara O’Brien: 29:39 

And and I love that you said no, you're shouting at her, and you were so quiet about it. So, I didn't feel like terrible, and you know, I took a deep breath and you said all you need to do is just, you know, move it. She feels everything you're doing, every piece of body language, she feels it. So, you're going to be as quiet as possible with your cues and it was kind of a revelation because I'm growing up. It was a lot of you know and not that we were being horribly mean, but we certainly weren't learning how to be Intune and soft.

Tiffany Stauffer: 30:00

Yeah, and that's the biggest mistake I see a lot of people make is they get in there and you know they're, they're asked. You know I say you're asking too much, or your ask is too big, with a lot of pressure, but they never gave the horse the opportunity to respond to the soft ask. So, my goal when I work with them is I want everything to be smaller and more in tune and less of an ask so my horses can do things with almost an invisible cue to someone who's watching. You know. So that's, that's the goal. But if you're always asking big it or like if you go to, you know you're riding your horse and you pick up on your reins every time, how do you ever expect them to ride off of your seat? It's like you always have to, and I'll clarify with my reins. You know, if I'm working on a stop in particular, I'll sit deep. That's the response I want them to, or the cue that I want them to respond to you. 

Barbara O’Brien: 30:52

Sit deep means to push your seat bones down into the saddle, because they feel that on their back.

Tiffany Stauffer: 30:56

And lean it back a little bit. like till your pelvis back.

Barbara O'Brien: 30:57

Yeah, so for the non-riders, just to understand what we.

Tiffany Stauffer: 31:00

Yeah. So, your cue can be so subtle as tilting your pelvis back and breathing out, and then, yeah, if they don't understand that, you know, usually we halt to break them before, so you can just pick up on your halter and say, hey, this is what I wanted, and show them what you want. You know, it's not until they, if they're completely not paying attention. Then it's like, yeah, we can go for a little bit bigger asker. You know, like you were waving it a little bit more firm. A lot of it comes into energy, and horses pick up on body language and energy a lot quicker than most people do. People aren't even aware of how, of how big they're asking their horse to do things. 

Barbara O’Brien: 31:33

Or not enough, one of the other. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 31:34

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 31:35

Yeah. So, asking or teaching them what response we're looking for by shaping that behavior, then we can ask yes questions instead of always ask is something they don't understand.

Tiffany Stauffer: 31:44

Yes, and it has to be within reason. You know you can't just expect a horse to know how to do everything. 

Barbara O’Brien: 31:51

Of course not.

Tiffany Stauffer: 31:52

But you can. You know, asking a yes question as long as you're what they're trying to figure out is with within reason for what they can figure out. You know, sometimes there is a little bit of a they're gonna have to think through it. Or you know, or read into it. 

Barbara O’Brien: 32:04

Like break it down in little steps 

Tiffany Stauffer: 32:06

You can see her thinking she wasn't always giving the right answer, but she would be trying different things and be like is this what you want? And instead of reprimanding her when it was a no, you just you know, keep asking, keep trying to clarify and then they do understand.

Barbara O'Brien: 32:19

Yeah, and, and being Morgan’s, they, they love to please as a breed. They're just like the border collies of the world. I of the dog in a horse world, I of course I'm a little biased, but they, they love that interaction, they love that, uh, you know, being able to do it right and then go like good job and you can just see them, you know, yeah.

Tiffany Stauffer: 32:39

Yeah.

Barbara O'Brien: 32:43

So, we've been talking about doing the initial groundwork, call it in the training. I wanted to tell you a quick little antidote because you've been out twice to help me. I'm so excited when you come because, with those three youngsters we've made, by you showing me what to do and we finally having it sink in, I'm able to work with them a little bit. So, the other day I um worked with all three and I had Rita, the the one that was more anxious. I was working with her and there were a few of the older mares in the paddock. I had taken the two hooligans, my two-year-olds, and they're in a separate paddock right next to each other so she could see them, but they weren't in there. Otherwise, all three are on top of me all the time. So, I was working with Rita and we had this little session working on the things of drive and draw and making a circle, a quiet circle around me. Mostly, we worked on her staying regulated, which means her staying in a calm state of mind, not being anxious, and it was working great. I thought this is wonderful. Um, I was really thinking about being present with her, like what, staying with her, not thinking about anything else, just like enjoying the moment being with her. So, I took her halter off and I'm like we're all done, you know you can go and uh for the next 10, 10 minutes or so, 15 minutes. She's like I really liked the game, and I didn't have treats. I wasn't working with treats, I was just working with you know, scratches and praise and things she really likes. She at liberty on her own now, not as sophisticated as what you can do, but at liberty. She was like I like the game; I'm going to stay with you. So, I would walk, and she was right by my side, and I would stop, and she would stop and I'd say, well, clever you, you know. And then I would turn into her shoulder and so she had to turn into herself and not walk on me and she was like I can do that. And I, and then pretty soon I went like, oh my gosh, this is so much fun. So, I kind of took my arm and said go over here and she followed my arm and went in that she followed my arm back, just an extension of like what the lead rope would be doing. Yeah, right, and it was for me. Could you know? It was magical. I almost cried. I mean that sounds so crazy. But it was like she was like I'm with you, let's play the game. I said, okay, I can wear this out, I'm going to stop while we're having a lot of fun and just, you know, not pressure, not do anything, and I just, you know, petted her and told her how clever she was and you know, she was very proud of herself and the two hooligans are like in the other paddock play with me, play with me. That would be Tess and Tatum. And I just it was one of the most gratifying experiences I've had with my horses since my old horse passed away and who I was really connected to and gave me so much hope with Rita that we're going to continue to build this relationship. She's just four we haven't backed her yet. That's gonna back means ride her. It's going to be a slow, careful process, but by going slower actually going fast, because I'm going to hopefully fill those gaps make sure that she understands all the time what's being asked, so that her stress level doesn't have to go up and I won't get hurt.

Tiffany Stauffer: 35:27

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 35:28

And I appreciate your helping me with that journey, and so your clinics are where people can come and uh, how many people are in a clinic?

Tiffany Stauffer: 35:36

Um, usually a limit to eight.

Barbara O'Brien: 35:37

So, they can really get attention and focused on you. They can come to you in Wilson, Wisconsin, but the best part is that you travel. I do so. Anyone listening to our podcast, uh, you know, she's got her passport, she's ready to go to Europe or uh, but certainly in the United States. You know you can get a facility, you can, you can put on a clinic and your clinics are always full.

Tiffany Stauffer: 35:58

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 35:58

People are always coming to you, so you've helped these people. With what in the clinic?

Tiffany Stauffer: 36:03

So, a lot of times it's being able to connect mentally. So, watching where the horse's attention is, do we have an ear? Are they soft? Is there a little bit of a bend to the person? What are they looking at? So really being able to kind of refocus on the horse is what we work on in the mornings. So, it's a lot of that.

Barbara O'Brien: 36:22

The horses are on halters at this point, most of them.

Tiffany Stauffer: 36:26

Most of them, I would say in general, we get them off the first day, if not the second day.

Barbara O'Brien: 36:32

How do the horses not just leave and go run off to smell other horses?

Tiffany Stauffer: 36:35

So, I mean there's a whole method to the process, but it's like we'll usually start in a smaller area, like a round pen, and so you were doing with Rita. You send her out one direction. So, if I'm trying to do some liberty work and asking them to stay drawn in on a circle around me if everything else fails and they leave, I'm going to control the direction first. So, you're sending circles. When you can send Rita out either direction, that's where we would start and then I would try to get in front of her eye. So, when you send you're kind of behind the drive line and driving her away.

Barbara O'Brien: 37:08

The drive line is the drive line for those that don't know is a point behind their shoulder.

Tiffany Stauffer: 37:13

Yes, yes. So, it's kind of like at their withers. So, if I'm walking at a horse, and the withers is a shoulder.

Barbara O'Brien: 37:19

Top of the shoulder yes.

Tiffany Stauffer: 37:20

Yes. So, it's like, if you're, my intention is kind of big and I'm walking towards them. I'm saying, hey, can you kind of move out of my space? I'm trying to push them out and around, so getting them to send on a circle around me. And then, once I can control the direction, I will kind of just step in front of their eye a little bit and try to catch their attention, and then I'm going to draw backwards. So instead of walking into them I'll just catch their attention, wait for an ear to flick and eye to come in a little bit of a softness bend in the body, and then I'm going to back away. And when they see that and kind of want to connect or step in a couple of steps, that's what I start rewarding.

Barbara O'Brien: 37:56

Ok, and the back, in a way, is an invitation to come in.

Tiffany Stauffer: 37:59

Yes, so that's your draw. So, walking into them is driving away. Backing up is going to be drawing.

Barbara O'Brien: 38:04

Are you using treats at this point? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 38:05

No. 

Barbara O’Brien: 38:06

Wow, that's amazing. I mean, I understand that trick training or treat training, and it works. It's a whole another podcast with another thing.

Tiffany Stauffer: 38:14

Exactly. Yes, there's a whole different ball game and there's a lot of like treat receiving that you would have to teach beforehand and letting the clicks so they know what it means, and so we definitely don't dive in and I can't say I'm a huge advocate for treats. I think it's. To me it's another tool in a toolbox. But it's not an end, all be all.

Barbara O'Brien: 38:31

And.

Tiffany Stauffer: 38:31

I really like to kind of have that communication the foundation of communication, without the food, because I've actually seen that sometimes it can create a little bit more anxiety.

Barbara O'Brien: 38:41

Oh, exactly, because now they're not trying to shape a behavior, it's just a seeking behavior.

Tiffany Stauffer: 38:46

Yes, like where is the treat on your body? And a lot of people can't handle that because it’s a lot more to shape.

Barbara O'Brien: 38:49

Because now we have a lot more to shape. And Morgans are really really food motivated, I mean just like really, really really, and I find that their brain kind of I mean I use treat. I'm an animal actor trainer, I train animal actors, so of course we use positive reinforcement and treats with dogs and cats and chickens and anything else for training. The food's very important because that's how we can shape a behavior quickly and make it really really fun. But with horses I can do the same concept because I can teach what. When you are shaping to get a treat, they have a sound, whether it's good, or a buzzer or whatever, a clicker. They know that means a treat's coming. You can use that to shape behavior. But it does take time and I find that, at least with my Morgans, they forget all about anything else except smelling and focusing on the treat. And it would take a lot more time to get them to work quietly and consistently without being seeking where they want to keep reaching for, wherever my bag is, and that's the whole thing. And there's people who do it very successfully, no doubt, but I find that mine seem equally happy with the praise.

Tiffany Stauffer: 39:55

Well, yeah, you don't necessarily need. It's that connection part. The food can sometimes create a false connection if they're just there for the food, and so I really like to focus on the communication part. And positive reinforcement can be praise and petting them and scratching them on their chest where they get some fly bites, or behind their ears. 

Barbara O’Brien: 40:15

Exactly. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 40:16

Every horse is different and that can absolutely be a form of praise, like it doesn't have to be food.

Barbara O'Brien: 40:22

No, well with liberty obviously they're choosing to be with you. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 40:24

Yes. 

Barbara O’Brien: 40:25

I mean, it's really, it's pretty black and white, because they can walk away and choose not to be with you and I don't see you as the kind of person that's forcing that like you, get back over here, I'm going to beat you up. I mean that's obviously not going to work. I see them when I was watching you do your liberty work with your horse. When you came over, you will see some of this footage. She wants to come play the game. It's like they're clever herd animals that want to play the game and be in tune, and this lucky horses choose to do that.

Tiffany Stauffer: 40:54

Yeah.

Barbara O'Brien: 40:54

So, some horses may take longer than others.

Tiffany Stauffer: 40:57

Absolutely.

Barbara O'Brien: 40:58

Some truly just like animal actors. Some dogs love the performance, they love the attention. They can feel the energy in the crowd. It's like really, really fun for them. And some horses would rather not. And you would choose that horse carefully then, like because I could see you're not going to force a horse to do something he doesn't. He could learn the things, but he may not enjoy it near as much. I don't see you forcing a horse to ever be in a position where he's got to perhaps perform in a sense if he doesn't want to. It's not you, you're not going to do that.

Tiffany Stauffer: 41:23

I really like them to enjoy it.

Barbara O'Brien: 41:25

Yeah, that's the whole point. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 41:26

I like a game. I like a horse that gets really animated and kind of when I brought my horse out here, it's like the rearing and the bucking and the running, like I like them to kind of play and be really animated. 

Barbara O’Brien: 41: 36

Yeah, and be allowed to do that and you're not riding them at that point. So, the rearing, the bucking is at a safe distance and it's not a dangerous defensive rearing and bucking. It's. I feel, great about myself.

Tiffany Stauffer: 41:45

Yeah, playing, yeah.

Barbara O'Brien: 41:47

And then I wouldn't recommend everyone just run out and start playing with their horses without having some good boundaries so that you get you're safe. You can't have your horse running you over. They sometimes don't know; they can't see you or they they could run into you really easily or kick you or you know. I mean just not even on purpose, but you've got to be aware.

Tiffany Stauffer: 42:02

Yes, absolutely. 

Barbara O'Brien: 42:02

So there has to be some training involved. I'm not running a run out.

Tiffany Stauffer: 42:07

Yeah, no, no, there's a whole. I mean there's a whole process.

Barbara O'Brien: 42:09

You're not chasing them. You know you're not chasing them with the whip in circles. You're not chasing them at all. You know you're encouraging but you're not like snap. Snap chase mean you know none of that negative where they're going to be fearful.

Tiffany Stauffer: 42:22

No, I want it to more. Just get their attention.

Barbara O'Brien: 42:24

Exactly.

Tiffany Stauffer: 42:24

So, like I use a whip snap and it's the sound like the sound.

Barbara O'Brien: 42:28

It's sound cue, yes, like sit, stay good, you know, it's no different.

Tiffany Stauffer: 42:33

Exactly, and it's just not anywhere near them. Attention getter yeah, it's not near them.

Barbara O'Brien: 42:37

You know. So ok, well, that's really cool. Now, just horses in general are when you're working with them, are there are more things the same with horses as far as horses as a species, more things that are universal with horses when you're training, versus things that each individual different horse. Like you know, there's 70% horses are the same, there's 30%. You know there's quirky behavior or do all. Does every horse work with these methods? It's just a matter of time.

Tiffany Stauffer: 43:09

So, there's definitely different approaches and some of them you know, we might have to go after if they're really shut down or really lack motivation and don't want connection. Sometimes we can, like I said, the food is a tool in the toolbox. So, some of them we do have to have a little bit different approach and have more kind of incentives and really baby them that way, whereas some really just desire the connection. So, similar to people, it's like sometimes we have introverts, we have extroverts, and so how we kind of deal with them. I would say most horses are kind of individuals, but there is definitely kind of a start or a basis that we get a gauge for the horse and then how we respond to their enthusiasm to work with us is how we're going to kind of take that method. So yeah, it just it kind of. It does depend on the horse quite a bit.

Barbara O'Brien: 44:00

OK, and speaking of clinics, next month you get to go to a pretty exciting festival clinic. Just tell us about what's going to happen. I wish I was in your shoes. It's pretty exciting.

Tiffany Stauffer: 44:11

Yes, so the Liberty Horse Festival is in Kentucky, I think it's Lexington, it's at the horse park, and so I know Warwick Schiller is going to be there. A couple other people I'm not as familiar with. Ben Atkinson is coming from the UK, I believe. 

Barbara O'Brien: 44:27

Ok. So, for those of us who don't know, please explain who Ben Atkinson is. I've heard him on Warwick's podcast. He's amazing. Warwick Schiller is a horse trainer that we all follow and is one of the voices that are really working on building a tune and connection and he's got a great podcast and so I get to hear. I'm learning a lot from him with his guests, and Ben Atkinson that you're referring to was one of his guests and he's had an amazing career, and I would be thrilled just to be able to sit in on that clinic and hear that. But please tell us about what you know about Ben and what the clinic's going to be like you think.

Tiffany Stauffer: 45:01

Yes, so Ben has done a lot of kind of movie acting and film production with his horses His. He kind of grew up doing that, that was his family thing and now he's created a team of 16. I think they're all Iberian style horses.

Barbara O'Brien: 45:18

So Iberian style horses would be. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 45:20

I think they're Andalusians, don't quote me on that. And he can work his entire team of 16 at Liberty.  

Barbara O’Brien: 45:27

16 horses at Liberty all working together, no conflict 

Tiffany Stauffer: 45: 33

It’s phenomenal.

Barbara O'Brien: 45:34

And if you ever see him or look at his videos, they are enjoying their job.

Tiffany Stauffer: 45:38

Oh, they love it. I mean he does a lot of demos. I've seen a lot of his videos and stuff, and they'll be on huge, not even arena sized stuff out on grass pastures and they're so engaged with him in what they're doing and they love their work and so, yeah, getting that many horses to work together and is quite phenomenal. And then he also does like Roman riding and trick riding and then Roman riding. 

Barbara O’Brien: 46:01

OK, Roman, riding is?

Tiffany Stauffer: 46:02

Liberty, so that is where they're standing with one leg on two different horses, and so I've seen him do that and he'll jump them, and his most recent kind of thing is now he's he had accomplished it at Liberty and then he went back and started putting driving lines on them. So, he's Roman, riding two horses but is controlling, I think, at least eight with different sets of reins. 

Barbara O’Brien: 46:26

Wow.  

Tiffany Stauffer: 46:27

So yeah, it's quite. I mean, the partnership that he creates with horses is quite phenomenal. As far as expectation of what the clinic is going to be, I have no idea that it'll be interesting, so he's not bringing any of his horses with him and… 

Barbara O’Brien: 46:42

Cuz they're in the UK. So…

Tiffany Stauffer: 46:44

Yeah, the logistics to fly 16 horses is just kind of 

Barbara O’Brien: 46:49

Quarantine and the whole thing. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 46:50

So, it'll be cool to see kind of the logic behind that too is how his methods, how horses who are not familiar with his methods, will respond to his methods, because he will be using Dan James's horses while he's here and presenting at the Liberty Horse Festival as well.

Barbara O'Brien: 47:08

Well then, these horses will be learning, so it'll be different than his own trained horses already. So, then people can actually see. So, you'll all learn from the clinic. You'll have to learn the methods. That's exciting. That's exciting, and the Liberty Horse Festival is just a bunch of different trainers coming together and like-minded people that are interested in these methods.

Tiffany Stauffer: 47:30

Yes, and while down there there's the, the International Liberty Horse Association has their world championships as well.

Barbara O'Brien: 47:37

OK, so it's competition this morning.

Tiffany Stauffer: 47:39

Yes, anyone can join the Liberty Horse Association. I mean, they have patterns posted on their website and the classes start online, so it's like everything we do. You don't just take a horse and throw them out in the arena and hope they're going to come. 

Barbara O’Brien: 47:52

No. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 47:53

Even the starting classes. It's like they have online in-hand classes down there, and so that's really cool that anyone can get involved at any level into the Liberty stuff.

Barbara O'Brien: 48:02

That's really exciting. Wow, I just want to go, so bad. Might have to take a trip down to Kentucky. I won't be bringing a horse, but I you know how long did I get a press pass? That's pretty exciting. Ok, I have to move this kitten so I can see my notes. I think I'll give Marigold to you. This is Iris and that's Marigold. All right, so we're going to get to the point here where just a few more questions before we have what we call cookie break, and so we'll be talking about that. But you talked a little bit about your dreams for the future, this therapeutic riding program. What has to happen for that to all come into place? What group of people do you think that you're going to be most comfortable serving? How does that come about?

Tiffany Stauffer: 48:49

I mean, I really don't know, and so I used to think that I really wanted to kind of focus on more like the, the disability, as far as like Down syndrome and William Syndrome kind of people. I had seen some phenomenal therapy centers really make huge changes in people who really struggled with that kind of stuff. But now that I've learned more about horses and how therapeutic they are, it definitely can cover a lot broader of a spectrum. 

Barbara O’Brien: 49:17

Certainly. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 49:18

As far as, like you know, especially rehab and addiction and stuff like that. I had sold a horse out in Colorado who went to a facility who even helped with eating disorders, and you know there's a lot of different things. As far as what capacity I will be involved, I'm not sure, but the opportunity will present itself at some point.

Barbara O'Brien: 49:36

Well, the nice thing is that you can run a facility and you can hire really qualified, wonderful people who are do or a horse, use horses for therapy and different modalities, and they're, you know, these are all podcasts for the future because there's so many people doing such amazing work, but the bottom line is horses heal.

Tiffany Stauffer: 49:56

They do and that is, you know, definitely something that. And yeah, like you said, it's like I just I kind of want to enable I'm not going to be the one doing the therapy, but I would love to have the horses and provide the horses and the space and kind of enable the healing to happen.

Barbara O'Brien: 50:11

Right and you are in tune enough that you'll pick horses to do this program, that it's okay for their mental health too, that the horse is happy in his work, not getting shut down, not being um, there's too much for me whatever because horses are so in tune. But they, if they're able to stay regulated, it's going to help the person who may be dysregulated, who may be. You know a lot of emotions are you know, especially when you know adverse childhood experiences and trauma, which you know comes out in so many different ways, and people with PTSD, and just there's so many ways to help. I'm sure you'll find your niche.

Tiffany Stauffer: 50:46

Yes, well, and a lot of it you said about, you know, horses enjoying it. Um, a lot of them actually are the horses at liberty, and so the horses have to choose whether or not they want to participate.

Barbara O'Brien: 50:55

Exactly, and that can be a real um learning thing for, like, a young person who has a lot of anger right and he's just radiating the anger and the horse will just go. Well, okay, then I'll just stand over here and tell you're ready, and the person has to go. Why doesn't he want to come near me? Well, let's take a deep breath, let's figure that out. Let's you know you need to regulate yourself too so this horse can feel safe in your, in your place or things like that, where the horses are really excellent communicators if we're paying attention.

Tiffany Stauffer: 51:21

Yes, totally yeah, they're I. I don't know how I will be involved or what has to happen. Right now I'm I'm still trying to figure out the logistics of just keeping everything running. 

Barbara O'Brien: 51:33

I believe, and I believe that, uh, you have a gift and you're going to be able to continue to share it. I mean, just the little time I spent with you, I learned much more about myself than I did the horse. Does that make sense? I learned what I was doing. That was not communicating clearly.

Tiffany Stauffer: 51:46

Yes, and I see a lot of people too projecting on horses, um, and there's been times where I'll show up and it'll, the horse will have a whole bunch of problems. You know they do this, they pull, they, rear they and I'll walk in and see no problems whatsoever. And so, a lot of times it's it's the projection of things onto that horse that kind of bring out a lot of bad behaviors.

Barbara O'Brien: 52:06

Yeah Well, he's, he's being stubborn, he's being dumb, he's, you know, he knows better. Blah, blah, blah.

Tiffany Stauffer: 52:11

To fix that, you have to look at yourself, not that. 

Barbara O’Brien: 52:15

Yeah, Kind of a reflection in some ways. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 52:17

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 52:19

All right, we're coming to a part of the show we call, you know, cookie break or cake time or whatever it is we're doing. But look, I have this batch of uh, so they don't tip over, but chocolate chip cookies. Chocolate chip cookies are going to be really, really yummy. Made with real Wisconsin butter and eggs from my very own hens. So, uh, when I first started out in the photography business, I would say I want to get a meeting with ad agency and I'd say, uh, you know, I'll show you my book and show you the work, right, but the way I got in was I would either promise to bring chocolate chip cookies or brownies, and I got every meeting I asked for because I would bring the yummy stuff. So so, when we're, when we're done here, we can, we can, have some of these cookies, but it's cookie break, which means it's… 

Tiffany Stauffer: 52: 59

They smell delicious. 

Barbara O’Brien: 53:00

Cookie break means it's time for, um, our, our questions. But no, we've been asking questions all along, but these are specific ones that I sent to you ahead of time, and so I have to say that I borrowed this idea from Warwick Schiller's podcast, where he asked his guests and, um, he sends them a list of 20 questions, which he borrowed from Tim Ferriss a book called The Tribe of Mentors. No, you can't have that. A book called The Tribe of Mentors. We may have to move cookies just briefly. So okay, note to self, cats will get after the treat.

Tiffany Stauffer: 53:33

Or the coffee, or whatever.

Barbara O'Brien: 53:39

Okay, so we sent you a list of 20 questions ahead of time. We're just going to ask five of them, and you were able to pick them out. Okay, so the questions that you picked out was one of them is what has been your biggest failure and how has it helped you?

Tiffany Stauffer: 53:54

So, I would say my biggest failure is, uh, not being an engineer. So, I went and got my degree and, you know, didn't use it so. So sometimes it feels like a waste of time, money, energy, whatever, because I spent a lot of years kind of doing that, a lot of hours studying, and it doesn't really. I mean, engineering is a far cry from from training horses. I mean it's not like a business degree that I could have put into use. Um, petroleum is just how to extract things out of the ground, essentially, um. But and how did it help me? I mean, the journey that getting that degree took me on led me to meet so many amazing people who have been such pivotal kind of turning points in in my career or life or healing process, and that's been quite amazing. Had I never gone out to school, I would have not met quite a few phenomenal people that have helped me along the way.

Barbara O'Brien: 54:44

Exactly so in the end, although I don't think it's, I mean, in my mind I'm like, wow, college degree and engineer pretty impressive and uh, the skills you learned must apply somehow into the things you're doing now. Anyway, besides the relationships, which sound even more important.

Tiffany Stauffer: 54:59

Yes and no, because I would argue, you know, it's like a lot of what we're moving towards is being able to, you know, kind of listen to your intuition and listen to your gut. And that's opposite.

Barbara O'Brien: 55:10

And engineering is not like that. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 55:09

Yeah, like that you know engineering is very much like I'm going to work as an engineer. It's like we have everything planned out and methodical and not actually listening to ourselves or our intuition or to a higher power whatever you want to call that kind of sense.

Barbara O'Brien: 55:22

So big shift.

Tiffany Stauffer: 55:23

So yeah, it's. It's been quite a quite a big shift.

Barbara O'Brien: 55:25

Maybe it's good to have learned that young and not spent 40 years as an engineer. Y

Tiffany Stauffer: 55:29

Yeah, exactly, right, 

Barbara O’Brien: 55:31

Right, okay. What accomplishments? Excuse me, what accomplishment are you most proud of, and why?

Tiffany Stauffer: 55:38

I would say that would have been my, my first world championship that you kind of touched on earlier. It actually stemmed off of my brother and we had a little bit of a disagreement. But he wanted a new horse because his wasn't good enough and so, off of a dare, I got to use her and show her trainer work with her for a year.

Barbara O'Brien: 55:57

Your brother's horse?  

Tiffany Stauffer: 56:00

My brother's horse, okay, and she was a Palomino. So, my I mean I set my ambitions high and wanted to go to the Palomino World Show on a horse that was she was not built for it. She had a long back, she had a weak top line, weak hind end. She was not what you would call a phenomenal performance horse, and so it took that much more work to get her kind of up to par, and and I was, you know, primarily on my own we we didn't take super regular lessons, it was maybe one here and there, but got her to competing on. I think we ended up on the national top 10 for several different classes and then at the World Show won three world championship titles. 

Barbara O'Brien: 56:40

Wow, wow. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 56: 41 

Off of a dare. Where the horse wasn’t good enough. 

Barbara O’Brien: 56:44

People have to understand how incredibly competitive a world show is. Every day. There'd be hundreds of people. How many of you would be a class? You'd be what? How many of you would be in a class? 

Tiffany Stauffer: 56:50

It wasn't that many because I was still in the youth. 

Barbara O'Brien: 56:53

Not a hundred down there. But I meant, like you know, lots and lots and lots of horses, and in your classes, even though it was youth, there'd still be a large number.

Tiffany Stauffer: 57:00

Yeah. Yeah, I don't remember anymore because that was in 2012. So I don't remember how many people were really… 

Barbara O'Brien: 57:05

But still, it was full, and it was competitive because these are the top in their game.

Tiffany Stauffer: 57:10

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 57:11

So, you took a horse. That may not have been, you know, the epitome of what all your competition was, but by just the training, the relationship, the hard work you were able to three... 

Tiffany Stauffer: 57:24

What dedication can, can really do, and even in situations that aren't ideal, you know. I didn't have a trainer and the perfect horse, and nothing lined up. The the cards were absolutely stacked against me.

Barbara O'Brien: 57:33

I think you had the advantage of your horse wanting to be with you, though. She cared, she wanted. I mean, I remember the horse. She wanted to do this. Her heart was in it.

Tiffany Stauffer: 57:42

Yes. 

Barbara O’Brien: 57:43

And I think that shows. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 57:44

We, we did have quite and, yeah, a lot of it was her try for me you know it wasn't that her try had the ability naturally, and so that was, you know, definitely a life experience of you know you'll kind of get out what you put into it, no matter what it is, 

Barbara O’Brien: 57:58

And the relationship was really important. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 58:00

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 58:01

Because it wasn't easy for her, you know. I mean, she wasn't built as as fluidly perhaps as some of these other horses, but because of her try it came through, and so it was just the relationship is kind of what made you champions.

Tiffany Stauffer: 58:13

Yes, yes, that's really. Yeah, it was phenomenal.

Barbara O'Brien: 58:16

She was beautiful horse. I remember. What was her name?

Tiffany Stauffer: 58:18

Sandy.

Barbara O'Brien: 58:19

That's right, I have photos of Sandy. Yes, okay, in the last five years, what new belief, behavior or habit has most improved your life?

Tiffany Stauffer: 58:28

So, I would say kind of what I we touched on just a second ago is is following your, your intuition and listening to your body and finding you know that and and working through emotion and not hiding it and so kind of living life a little bit more present and and pursuing essentially a healthy version of yourself. And so that was. I definitely think there's been a shift more recently, you know, in kind of society as a whole to to start following that. I know you know obviously Warwick Schiller in the horse industry has has done that, but there's a lot of right now a big shift to kind of move back to kind of our roots and and kind of follow our truths and work through being in the present and all that stuff.

Barbara O'Brien: 59:11

Yeah, if you had had listened to Mary Corning, or Kerri Lake is exactly. Then going Mary, Mary Corning says back to the source.

Tiffany Stauffer: 59:18

Yes.

Barbara O'Brien: 59:19

And Kerri Lake is, goes back to being present and in feeling the energy of everything around us and… 

Tiffany Stauffer: 59:25

Yes, and being in sync 

Barbara O’Brien: 59:27

And horses bring us back to nature. Horses our connection to nature for us as human beings, and that's why we feel so good around them. It's very ancient. That's cool, all right. What inspires you and motivates you to do what you do? What is your true purpose in this world?

Tiffany Stauffer: 59:41

I mean watching other people find that connection with their horse. I mean I absolutely love you know going to clinics and seeing people have breakthroughs and understand better you know their horse, increase their communication, their connection, all of that just brings me so much joy.

Barbara O'Brien: 59:58

Oh, boy?

Tiffany Stauffer: 59:59

That is, why I do what I do and and then I love the horse aspect to it, so I do still buy a couple horses every now and then to to sell and and going on the journeys. I like learning from horses, so every horse that I work with I can learn a lot from, and so it's continuing my own education, and I just I mean the thrill of the possibility of what's out there. There's just so much information I don't know how, how you could ever not be learning.

Barbara O'Brien: 1:00:25

Oh, exactly. 

Tiffany Stauffer: 1:00:26

And I love that. 

Barbara O’Brien: 1:0027

I can speak from personal experience, because I was tempted to send Rita back to her breeder. I was feeling like I wasn't getting through. I was afraid of her and because when she first came she was really worried and would be defensive with her back end, like you couldn't walk around her and we couldn't catch it for the first couple weeks, although grain helped and we were really slowly. And now now she has too much draw, which is a good problem to have compared to what it was, but I was still worried, like I'm just never gonna be able to feel safe with her, and had to talk with her about it. I literally talked to her about it. You know, after you, the first time we worked with you, I said I am scared of you, and I need to work on this. But this is how I'm feeling and and now I have when I'm with her, I think to myself I'm just gonna breathe and I'm gonna be present and like the more I let go of when I not hide the fear, not stuff it down, but the more I work through it because of the injuries from the other horse. So, it's not even this horse didn't do anything. I have to tell myself she's not that horse and she's different horse and I'm gonna not be foolish. But I'm also gonna like let her know that it's okay and I'm gonna learn to trust you and you're gonna learn to trust me. And even in just the three, four weeks that we've been, you know, doing this, it's been an amazing bond that we built. Even though all along I've always been able to, it was a breakthrough. Spending some time with you, learning to be more present and to work through the feelings I had about her really helps, so I'm grateful. So, yeah, I want you all to know that you can go to Grace and  Grit Horsemanship on Facebook and watch a lot of the videos and learn from Tiffany all for free, so that's pretty cool. And then she has the clinics and we're gonna talk her into doing a whole video series and be creating a. Website and and kind of getting out there in the world, because Tiffany has a lot to share. So, the last question. Oh sorry, two more questions quick. No one more question, sorry. What quality do you admire most in people?

Tiffany Stauffer: 1:02:20

Honesty, really, you know, even brutal honesty sometimes it might be hard to hear, but constructive criticism and people being honest with where they are, what they're working on, what they're going through I think it helped a lot. And then, you know, give honest feedback too. So that's, and I think we kind of are in a culture where a lot of things are are not what they appear on the outside, and so someone who can be really genuine and not always just put on a really good show, but be honest about all of the places, I think that's where we do most of our learning. If you know a lot, a lot of people that have mentored me, it's like, well, if they would have come to me and been like, yeah, this is great, my life is awesome, I Can't really learn or get from that. And then you know too, when they try to give me advice. I want honest, genuine feedback of the struggles and the hardships, and and that really is what has helped me more than anything it's when people are very honest and in every sense of the word.

Barbara O'Brien: 1:03:15

All right, so that wraps up our questions and we're almost to the end of our podcast and I really enjoy sitting with you. Well, where can, where can folks find you and get to get in touch with you?

Tiffany Stauffer: 1:03:25

Yeah, so right now I just have a Facebook page, and so I do, and I do have a YouTube channel as well. So that's, you can look up Grace and Grit Horsemanship on Facebook, and that is, I post some you know, shorter videos. Every once in a while do like pointers and stuff like that, and then usually it's just kind of showing what I'm up to, but that's. If someone was interested in connecting, that's definitely probably the best way to to connect, to sending me a message on Facebook.

Barbara O'Brien: 1:03:53

Okay, well, believe me, you're gonna want to connect with Tiffany, especially if you want her. Well, if you want her to come and do a clinic at at your location, you're gonna. You're gonna hear more from this young lady. Yeah, she's, she's gonna be a force in the horse world. I can tell you that right now. Thank you so much for listening to the apathetic trainer and please join us again next time. Can you hear that purring? I can.