Trusting Life Means Trusting Death Too • Chris Lombard • Horse Trainer, Clinician & Author • S4 E 35

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Hi, I'm Barbara O'Brien. I'm an animal trainer and photographer, and I'd like to welcome you to the Empathetic Trainer. Hi, this is Barbara O'Brien, and you're listening to the Empathetic Trainer Podcast. Now, Chris was on my podcast a while back, and our talk about horses ended up being a whole lot more. Chris is a horse trainer, clinician, teacher, and author of a new book called Warrior Horse: Living and Dying with Animals in a Soulful and Heartfelt Way. I've read the book, and I don't want to tell you too much about what happens, but I will tell you it's about loving animals, losing them, and what happens to us when we have to figure out how to keep on living after they're gone. Chris, welcome back. I'm really glad you're here.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

I'm pretty excited, Barbara, to be here again. I'm just a big fan of you, the podcast, and uh where the conversation goes when we meet. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Okay, so I'm gonna show everybody the book first because um by the time by the time you uh you know get done with this podcast, you better run out and order this book because wow, this is such a good, powerful read. And if you've ever loved an animal, which you know all of us have, I hope, um, we all have similar experiences at one point or another. And uh to have you say it so clearly, so honestly, um you know it's hard, it's it's a very, very good book to read, and it's hard not to feel something when you're reading it. And I think that's a good testament to how you express yourself and your story, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Thank you. Uh it's always an honor whenever whenever somebody would want to read the book, you know, and go on for that journey. Books are commitments like anything else. And uh horse people, animal people tend to be pretty busy. So when they want to take the time to do that, that honor's never lost on me.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

There you go. So I want to start there with everything you've been through since we last talked, uh, which is back in 2024. Um and just after writing Warrior Horse, uh, what does trust life mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

Oh boy. Trusting life means trusting death too.

unknown 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Trusting life means trusting all of life. I find if we pick and choose, that ends up to a lot of things like labeling and judging and separation and conditional love. Conditional love and things like that, which tend to get in the way of really fully feeling free and whole and being ourselves and being able to love others in that same way, loving them in a whole way, you know, the whole bits and pieces of us as we go through life learning, same with animals, same with humans. Uh, we're we're different in ways, animals and humans, but the same, uh, I'd say, and more than not. And so when we can get to that point of not only trusting what's happening in our lives, but trusting when our experiences do not go as planned, and we're going through challenges and different pains and sadnesses and traumas, if we can not only trust that, but if we can trust the biggest thing we're afraid of, um, death, dying, and when that time comes, if we can trust that, there's a there's a freedom and a love beyond that where so many doors open.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

So what you're saying, that trusting life doesn't necessarily mean believing that everything's gonna turn out okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

There's a story I find. There's a story for me I know that I have oftentimes, and I might not even be aware of it. It could be more subconscious, but it's the story of how I think life needs to go for me to be happy and safe and loved and all of that. And that story is very tied to our animals, where we have stories about how they have to be and what they have to do and their care as well and their well-being. And if I can let go of that story and more just live as close as I can to the present moment, you know, if I can live close to the present moment, just following my heart right down to the moment, and that adds up to minutes, hours, days, weeks, and you know, and so life tends to take you in a direction that creates more of that. But is and it can become a little bit um predictable, even in ways. You know, when you're living by your heart, you tend to get that back. You know, when you're really focused on a on safety and peace, then you tend to get that back. Um, however, there are things that happen that seem to be, boy, what we call just out of our control, um, and they're not predictable and everything else. And we at the beginning, we sometimes wonder, why is this happening? It doesn't make any sense. I find that the sooner we can let go about the why and the fairness of it, and and just embracing it and trusting that this could be helping us get where we're going, even if we can't see that place, even if we can't see that far ahead, that the sooner we can let go and trust life, uh, the more we can be in that moment and really feel it and understand it and find the way ahead. Uh, that way ahead that just seems to lead to more love and connection out there with ourselves and with our loved ones.

SPEAKER_02 5:38

Yeah. Um as a human thing we all go through, uh, did grief ever make you question things that you thought you believed?

unknown 5:51

Woo!

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Great questions right off here today, Barbara.

SPEAKER_02 5:54

I was gonna dig deep because uh this book really resonated.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

So I love you, and I love right off these questions right here that take it's effortless to answer because you've got me right in my heart here coming with these. And the answer there is yes. Absolutely yes. When Matea was in the process of passing away, um, and as you can see in the book, that felt like a real messy time for me.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

You know, we should say that Mateo is your dog, just for people that aren't familiar with that.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Right. Thanks for mentioning that there. Matea um was my dog here in this world. And I fought against that. Um, there was a lot of other things in my life that were really hard at that time, really hard. And I just felt like, you know what, this isn't fair. Yeah, this is not how I wanted this to go. This was not, you know, um, and I felt like it really wasn't fair. And the grief made me angry, made me frustrated and angry, which is okay. That's often a um common response. And we're still responsible, though, for how we let that pass through us, um, for how that directs our actions. We're always responsible for how we're living in this world. Um, but I remember shouting into the sky, Barbara. I remember looking up into the sky and being angry. And uh it's such a famous thing, right? You see that in all the movies and and all that. Somebody looking into the sky, where that tends to be where we look when we're thinking of like, you know, uh, all that is something that maybe knows what's going on, but we don't, something that might be pulling the strings and guiding all of this. And I remember looking into the sky, and I had some words that were not very loving. And um, I was downright angry about all of this. Um, and I'll tell you, that doesn't, you you might feel better in the moment, you know, you might you've let energy out, but it doesn't do anything for the grief that you just spoke of. No, um that grief, that grief wants to be loved, it wants to be held, it wants to be understood, and it wants to have its time, um, whether it's a minute or a year, uh, or even your whole life. There's no time limit where it has to leave, and we don't need to get it to get to leave. Um, feeling grief means you've loved, you've loved deeply.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Yeah, exactly. And your reaction uh sounds really human to me when we're losing something and we can't control it. That's I I think that's pretty universal, and um, you're right about that. And someone um recently told me, and it was really profound to me, uh, grief is love with nowhere to go. And I just thought, wow, you know, that like because you have all this love, and now this thing that you love, this person could be, you know, animal, or your uh a life you were living and it's changed, you know, you've had an injury or something, whatever. It's like this this love with nowhere to go, and and that's gonna take some work to figure out where to start putting that love again, or where it goes, or what you do with it. And I just thought that was kind of like wall, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Wow, really well said. Yeah. If you're feeling that pain while your loved one is still there, you can walk over to them, you can hug them, you can talk to them, you can help them support them in that moment. You got some sort of action you can take. Um, but then once they're gone, that grief is just left over with nowhere to go. Love that has nothing to do in that moment. And as my friend Ray Wrightsey, who's one of my mentors, says, you know, one of the most powerful things you could do with any one of these hard feelings is just sit with it. Can you sit with it, be present with it, understand it, process it, and help it to be moving, help it to move through you and move through you in in the time that it takes. So that makes a lot of sense to me, what you just said.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

Yeah. When the last time we spoke, you said let the future come to you. But how do you do that when what's coming is um not exactly what it's like what you don't want? Like, oh, this is coming and I don't want this. You know, how do we how do we work around that? You know?

SPEAKER_00 10:08

I try to get in touch with what the moment wants. You know, if if I can the moment serves all. You know, the moment has everybody's greatest interests at heart, and including mine, including ours, you know, it looks at the whole. And sometimes the moment wants you to sit back and watch, sometimes it wants you to turn around and try again another day. Someday it sometime it wants you to walk forward, it wants you to try again, or it wants you to try something different. And it's the hardest thing because we'd rather be told what to do. We'd rather there was some manual about how to do this all. Because the hardest thing is to sit with it and feel life from the inside out and get to that intuition, that guidance that comes from the heart space that has everybody's best interest at heart. Um, if it's say, okay, I'm gonna go help this animal right now, or there's something we can do, or if it's time to let go. Um, the moment also takes in all considerations. You know, you you ask the question, you you ask the animal or the loved one, you know, is there anything you need right now? How how may I best serve you? How may I best care for you right now? And when you're in that heart space, they can it can just be a glance from their eyes. They just look at you a certain way, and it's like all of a sudden you get this whole download of a whole book about what they're feeling and saying and wanting. And then it's trusting it. And then it's trusting it as far as that time to let go and let go fully. But that is the tough question about like, you know, the whole process of visualizing what you'd like to have happen and living as if and trying to create that forward, versus feeling like you're part of something that is heading a certain way for reasons we might not be able to make sense of at the moment, and to let go, to surrender, to surrender to that, which is the greatest courage and bravery you could have at that moment.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

I can imagine, yeah. Um, we talk about in my seminars uh state, not story, which goes back to what you're saying about being present, which means in that moment, what is the state of that animal or person you're talking to, instead of their backstory or any judgment you had about them or any grieving for what may have been. You know, just a quick example. Say somebody has a sport horse, they're oh well, I'll use the dog story because it's really quick. But um, like if you get this dog and you think he's gonna be this great um performance dog and do this particular, you know, he's gonna be agility or he's gonna be the something that you're really into competition, or whatever uh aspiration you have for this pet, right? This dog. And then he doesn't live up to it because it, you know, whatever reason he's just not capable, whatever it wasn't his thing, he didn't enjoy it. You know, now it's it's a small thing to well and let your dog be, but some people, you know, it's like a lot to give that up, or a horse that's meant to be this performance thing, and then he can't do it, or he's injured, whatever. Now you're missing the story of what might have been. Or even more personally, like when you have a foster kid live with you and you love them and you do all your best, and then they get older as an adult and they're still caught in throes of addiction and problems and things that you can't fix for them, and you grieve what might have been, you know. So, you know what I mean? Like that's that that love with nowhere to go because you have to have a safe boundary, and you grieve what might have been, and it doesn't mean they're not even gone, and thank God they're alive, right? And there's hope there, and you hang on to that. But part of you sits there and grieves what might have been. And I think people can feel that with animals as well, when they're you know in this process of losing one or they're not living up to what they imagined, and then we beat ourselves up for the same thing. I grieve what I could have been, you know, like we need some more grace for ourselves and these animals, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

What you just said was beautiful. Um, state versus story. And I believe that the story we have, and it's okay to have these thoughts of like, I'd like to do this in life, I'd like to share these experiences with my horses. And then to be in the present moment means to be in the current state of how your animal's feeling, how you're feeling, and what the relationship is feeling, and all of that. So it requires a near constant, sometimes let go of how we thought it was gonna go. Um, and I do find these things that we uh want to do in life that are from love, you know, like sharing experiences with our loved ones. I find that it comes. It comes to us. It just might not be then, it might be later, it might be with a different loved one that we that we thought.

unknown 14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Yeah. Um, but that it comes in the time where it's more in alignment and more beautiful than when we really wanted it way back when.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

No, I think we can all speak to that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

There's like this intelligence, there's no other way to put it. There's like this intelligence that I believe we're a part of, that we are creating from and with, that kind of has our best interests at heart. And these are, I find, tough conversations to have. Really tough because there's a lot of trauma in the world, a lot of pain, and a lot of experiences that are really tough. A lot of experiences that um are very scary, very traumatic, and can leave us uh in a state of um just feeling very disconnected uh to the world in a lot of ways. Uh, that can leave us staring up at the sky and shouting angrily, uh, both for ourselves and for our loved ones. So these conversations I find there, you know, my friend Silas works for a youth nonprofit, and he once said, uh, he he's the leader of it, he's the creator of it, and he once said, he goes, you know, I want to have the circles, I want to have the tough circles. Uh I want to sit in the circles because part of his um he what he does is he makes movies with youth. Okay. Um where the youth come together and they write, act, direct, edit, score, they make the movie themselves. And and uh and he spoke about how I want to have the tough circles that nobody else wants to have. And he eventually found his way to working with um a place here in Maine called Long Creek, which is where um juveniles go when they've um committed some sort of crime where normally they would be tried as an adult. But since they're juvenile under 18, they can't be, but they still need to maybe go someplace for the safety of themselves and others. And uh that's where he's ended up working these days, is working with those kids at that age. And I was talking to him the other day, and I'm like, congratulations, buddy. Those are the tough circles, those are the tough questions because what has happened there, what has happened in those instances, is some of the toughest things that can happen in life.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, the paradigm when we're dealing with young people or really any animal is not what's wrong with you, but what happened to you. And then, you know, what support did you have after it happened? And sadly, in the cases of you know, um very hard to live with trauma, we've learned it's because there wasn't a support for what happened. You know, and that I think that happens with animals too, when when they carry, because horses have incredible memories, you know. So what happened and did it keep happening, and how do we get over that to learn it's not going to happen again? Because horses learn, you know. Uh so we're all mammals in that respect of the animals we're dealing with, and so we're our nervous systems work the same way. And uh yeah, so I knew I knew we would have a good talk, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 18:17

I just knew that that that really gets into it, that question right there. I mean, a lot of when people are talking about living life these days and talking about letting go and surrendering and trusting. Well, it's the real deal when you're talking about some of the biggest, most traumatic things that can happen in life. Um, but I find those conversations while being held respectfully and gracefully and with much respect and honor for where somebody's at in their process, I find those are the conversations that truly can help move things in the world and help us all to understand a little bit better.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah. I'm gonna get back to what grief actually is, at least we understand. Um grief is such a strange thing because it's not just about being sad, is it? It can be, like you said, anger and guilt and like relief in some cases, and then missing them like crazy, and like that can all happen on the same day. Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Um so so what have you learned about grief? And and I think we talked about it a little bit, but what have you is is grief something we have to work through, or is it more something we have to let happen, or is it a combination?

SPEAKER_00 19:31

What I learned about grief is that it's one of the most beautiful things in the world. I wouldn't give back a second of it. Matea was my first close, close individual in this world that passed on. When I was younger in my life, my father passed away when I was 13, and I had a friend named John who passed away when I was 19. I found I was young, though, and I didn't know if I was embracing it or not. And there was nobody talking to me about these things. It was, you know, it was mid-80s and early 90s, and I found people would cry, hug, but nobody was really talking about it. Us us human beings have come really far in the last 20, 30 years. And I think we're moving fast in that. And I think it's pretty uncomfortable. I think these times are pretty messy for a reason because there's a lot of growth happening right now. And growth, the deeper it goes, is totally equates to the deeper of challenge felt. They go hand in hand. Friction leads to flow, flow after a while leads to friction, which leads back to flow. And so when I was younger, I didn't really fully understand or go through it, and it was more just looking around you, watching other people and trying to learn from them how you go through such things. And it was more like you cry, talk about a little bit, and move on. What I found though with Rocky, my horse, and Matea, my dog, when they were passed so close together and I was with Matea for 13 years and Rocky for 21, all those sayings are true. All those famous sayings that are in the books and the movies, they became a part of me. I lived with part of my heart outside of myself. The more deeply you connect to another, the more you feel the oneness of all things, the more you feel that they are you and you are them. And so you feel like you're going through it with them when they're passing. And it's scary and it's fearful, and it's the unknown which scares us very much, the unknown. And the idea of them not being here after you become so entwined. There's the codependency of being connected to somebody, but then there's also the good, healthy side of dependency and being connected to another. There's that healthy side of being attached to another. That when they are leaving, it's going to hurt. It's going to hurt. With Matea, I got there at the end of it. Those last days, we got there. That last month or so, month or two. But before that, I just felt like I was stumbling over myself and fighting it and scared and feeling she she had to live. I'm at such a deficit right now. I need her to be here. I need her to fill in for me while I am feeling at such a deficit. Like she had my whole life. No matter what was going on, no matter how bad it was, Tay Dog was at my side.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

The same dog she was the day before. I always could go there and everything was okay. And then when we went through that, and I since I had gotten to that place of let go just before, that day that she died and passed on was one of the two most beautiful days of my life.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

The other one being when Rocky passed on.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Of course.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

It was also the most pain. It was also the most love. If you see it, there's an equality. I'm going to say it's the most everything, the most trust, the most friendship, the most connectivity, the most letting go. Like they they all equal each other. You can't have great deep love. And then no, no pain, no trauma, no challenge. No, no, that doesn't roll that way. And um, and then what I felt in those weeks after. What I felt in those weeks after was bigger, bigger than any of the pain, trauma, and challenge. They get the pain, trauma, and challenge got swallowed right up into it and became a part of it. That love I felt for them and the feeling of their presence still with me. Even stronger than when they were here in their horse and dog bodies. It was like when they're in the in this world, they were confined to those bodies. And if I wanted to be around them, I had to go see them. Um, but then after they passed, it was like they were um in all around me, everywhere, and everything, and inside me even. Yeah. Um, and so their presence never left, and in fact, their presence with me became stronger.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

I believe it. Now, I I'm a I'm a person of faith, and so when you talk about intelligence and and something caring about us, I you know that's of course naturally where I go. And so I can have I can understand um that. I also believe that um I will see my animals again. I mean, this is just me. I mean, I can't imagine if you know I get to go somewhere. I wouldn't want to be there without them, you know. So that helps ease my pain, knowing that they're waiting, they're there, they're like they're with me. I get it, what you're saying. I feel that too. But I also feel like, you know, I'm going to see you again. And but that's me. I mean, I can't speak to everybody else on that.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah, I feel that way too, Barbara. I do. And, you know, what I'm called to speak about here actually is to flip to the other side of things a little bit because like our heart can feel these things, our heart, our soul, spirit can kind of feel like, you know, I'm gonna see you again. This this ride and journey is continuing. But I find the brain is kind of like, oh, really? Yeah, well, yeah. Prove it, says the brain, right? Because the brain wants to look out for us, right? The brain is looking out for us, it wants to keep us safe. And so it can sneakily be operating in that self-preservation mindset more often than not. And so it needs proof, right? It needs something that proof, and once isn't enough. It needs it to be a repeatable study that has repeatable, consistent results, and everything. So, what helped me a lot there was speaking to other people that didn't know each other. Uh, my friend Judy Garbo, my friend Chase's Medicine. Uh, he's also named Jim Miller, who's an Oguala-Lakota holy man. Uh, my friend Fool's Crow, another O'Glau-Lakota holy man. Uh, my friend Ray Wrightsey. Uh, all these different people. Um, at the time, also reading the writings of Laura Lynn Jackson, who has helped people to reconnect with pets after they had uh pets had passed on. And then uh my friend Joni Morrison, who helps people connect with pets even after they've passed on. And so all these people don't know each other. But the most interesting thing is they all said the same exact thing. They say the same exact thing. And for me in my life, I've always found that I've had to work a little bit, like I've I'm sometimes naive. And and the the good side of that is I see the good in everybody and everything, right? I see the good in everybody and everything, which sounds great, but everything's got its flip side coin in this world of duality. Hut needs cold, um, connected needs not connected to to know when you feel connected, you know, young and old. Everything has its place to kind of give us an idea of where we're at, you know, in any present moment. And so that part of me that can see um the good in everybody and everything, well, that also leads to being a little naive. But I I'm learning the better balance. But one of the things I've always been able to do, Barbara, is when I feel truth, uh notice I said feel, I didn't even know I said that. I meant to say hear truth, but what it is is I feel it. When I hear truth, my body will have a reaction, I'll feel it. Like I instantly know I just heard something that I'm not learning, but more so I'm remembering. Um, I'm returning to. And so when Chase's medicine tells me, like, oh yeah, brother, you're gonna see that dog again. She's walking with you until you're you're gonna she's gonna meet up with you again. Um, and when Judy Garbo or Joni talks to me about how, oh, if you want to connect to them and talk to them, here's what you do. And so, in doing that, what happens though is you know, I'll do that, and then based on what I hear back, I'll then do what we were talking about. You know, I'll you know, I'll just go and live life, how we just chatted about mirack or tay dog, and then just see what happens, right? The brain kind of needs those results, and every single time it leads to beautiful, awesome things, um, even to the point of needing help, you know, like I need help finding this. Um, and then pink, there it is, right after asking for help. And and then and it's it's a muscle that needs to be exercised. You know, it didn't come easy to me. I remember back in 2016 trying to kind of get a feel for a lot of this stuff. Um, but it does help when you start to hear can see consistency among other individuals that have been there before you saying these things, um, but then also seeing them appear in your life and seeing the results click into place. Like this is this is real. No, nobody could have known that, or nobody could have said that, and this is there.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Yeah, no, I understand. I understand. Oh, let's see. Well, and that this happens a lot in our world, and I think it's hard because we're we are being more open and it's good about loving our animals, right? We can admit it more. I mean, look at how animals are really pets and dogs. Horses become even more parts of our lives where we can say, like, you know, I really love my dog, right? But then there's still people when you lose some, you lose a beloved companion, friend, you know, piece of your life, right? When you lose an animal, a horse, a dog, a cat, you know, it could be anything, and they say, Well, come on now, it was just a dog. And what do you do with that? Like, are they trying to not validate? Are you supposed to say, wait, I shouldn't feel this, I shouldn't go through this, what's wrong with me? You know, this hurts, it's unfair, I'm mad, whatever the feelings are, you know?

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yeah. Animal people, uh, people who love animals dearly can have a really heavy dough of it in this world. Because you can't really leave your house or drive too far without seeing something that can affect you very deeply. Um, you can look to either side of the road and you see an animal that has been hit and been left there. And people who tend to um feel deeply for animals tend to feel real deeply in life. They feel a lot. Yep, they they really are um very apathetic, as is the name of your podcast. They just really feel so. I know a lot of animal people that will purposely wall themselves off a lot of times. It's just too hard to feel the world. There's a lot of it, and we do have to learn how to manage that and have boundaries and take care of ourselves because the world is in flux, it's in transition, just like you said, about better care for animals. So it's getting better, but there's still a lot out there that's catching up and having a hard time. And it's due to generationally, for thousands of years, human beings are just so focused on their survival that we looked at animals like we do the natural world. How may they serve us? What can we get from them? That it could be food, or it could be beasts of burden, our engines to pull things and toy our toll our fields and get us to towns and help us defend our people in times of war or attack other cultures. That was horses for 6,000 years. So that's all in shift now. And we just look at like one of the most common things that we can see in how this plays out in our culture that's been born of thousands of years, is humans will refer to animals as it. And we wouldn't we wouldn't ever refer to uh uh another human as it. Like if I said, look at that dog, it's crossing the road. So that sounds normal. And if I said, look at that human, it's crossing the road. I I sound like an alien if I say that. Right, yeah. There's like disconnection, and it's like I'm pointing at something that's outside of me that I don't understand, that I'm not related to. I'm referring to it like they're an object. You know, look at that horse, it's walking up to me. Look at this human, it's walking up to me. Right, right. And so I was doing that for so long, you don't even understand, because right, it's passed down to us. But the moment that that I became aware of that, I said, okay, I gotta start to refer to animals as they, them, their, he, she, or their name. And uh it took a little training, you know, to kind of change that. But that just shows where we came from for thousands of years. And so when somebody says, What does that matter? It's just a dog, I both think, oh, you know, maybe in their life they don't allow themselves to feel too deeply beyond their own really tight personal sphere of influence. Um, you know, meaning I don't think that they'd be saying, like, oh no, the people across the world need help. You know, it seems like the more distance but they feel from another, the less affect and less care. So, but that doesn't mean there's something can't be awakened. Because I remind myself, every I when I grow and look at where I was, I'm like, wow, Chris, you had a distance to go and there's no end. I could I could care for animals probably oh, so much more already than I do now, but I can't do what I what I'm not ready to do or able to do in my own evolution. So it's important for me to look at those people and not judge, is what I'm getting at.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah, it sounds like you give you giving them some grace because you don't know their story, right? It's just their state, and we don't want to make up the story. So you're right about that. You gotta get some grace protection. That's lovely.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

By not wanting to feel there, you know, that's what we do. We protect ourselves by not feeling. It takes bravery to open up and connect to another. But I find you just got to get people around animals, just get them a little around animals, just get that ball rolling and it takes off.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

That's the story of my life. I hear you, Chris. I know. I want to talk a little bit about um this is a hard part too, but when love can no longer fix what is happening, you know, like like you love them, but this is the illness, the accident, the the time, you know, length of life, whatever it is that's going on, it can no longer fix what is happening. Um and so I I just want to tell you a quick story because as horse owners, we've all gone through this and you've gone through it in ways too. Um, you know, I've had rescue horses pretty much my whole thing. And so I had a Morgan mare from Forever Morgan's, and she was older, and I'd only had her a few months because I got her in the winter. Her name was Laurel, and uh spring came, and uh, we're very careful with founder and morgans and grass, you know, like we're just really careful. But um, for some reason she coliced, you know, and we're familiar with colic, so you do all the things, you know, you call the vet and you give them banamine and you walk them, and he did a mineral oil treatment, you know, everything we could do to help this horse feel better with her colic. And it's a rural vet, and so his distance, you know, he has to come some distance, he takes time to get to us and stuff, but he came. And then um, it just wasn't getting better over time because we're like walking or doing all those things. And then that sinking feeling starts to hit you that this is a twisted gut. And um, if you're familiar with horses at all, um, a twisted gut, their intestine is only attached by a little tiny piece of tissue in a sense. Their gut can twist if they roll, and they roll when they have colic because they're trying to feel better. You know, so she had a twisted, and so um, you know, everything starts to her gut can't work normally, and it's extremely painful for a horse. It's painful for humans, extremely painful for a horse. Their belly fills up with air, and you know, like it fills up with it, just it's a bad thing, and surgery is only maybe 50%. If you're lucky, the horse might live. And and it's an incredible amount of money, especially when you're doing you know, the life I had, there was just no way I was gonna be able to take this rescue horse, or and and I just could not make that kind of financial commitment, and so you know, you feel guilty about that. So I call the vet back because I'm like, she's in so much pain, we have to put her down. You know, this we've tried everything, it's been this many hours, da-da-da. So the vet was gonna come back, he's on his way back, and it's nighttime at this point, and um you want to keep them walking, keep them moving, da-da-da. It's painful for her to walk. Horses are so resilient, you can barely tell they're in pain. So when you see that they're in pain, you better believe it's like really serious pain. And um, I was uh sad for her, but I also said, you know, Laurel, you can go. You can go, Laurel. It's okay. Like I felt peace with the fact that she was in so much pain, there was nothing in surgery we could do for her that we you know would even be like a good prognosis. She was already quite old. Um, I felt I felt like peace at going, I felt guilt that she got colic in the first place, but sometimes these things can't be controlled. We did all the right steps to prevent it, but sometimes you know, things can happen, right? And so I said, You can go. And tell you you talk about a feeling between the horse and the human and like this wave of you know, it's there. She was like, Okay, she laid down with a matter of seconds and died, like flat, you know, just done. And I felt it, and I was with her and I held her, and I felt such relief because she was out of pain and it was okay, and she could go. Now, if it had been a different horse, maybe that failing would have been completely, he's only five years old. This is horrible. You know what I mean? Like it could have been a way different experience, but my heart was like, You are in so much pain, I want it to stop right now. I don't even want to wait for the vet. You can go. And she had the grace, this miracle, this small mercy to go, you know. So everyone's circumstance is different. And I'm still sad that, you know, of course, we lost Laurel. But I had to tell myself, you know what, from the situation she was in in the kill pen to when she came to me, at least she had five, six months of, you know, friends, food, forage, as happy an ending as we could possibly give her. Right. And uh other passings, other dogs, other it's not as easy or simple, way different. So it can kind of go either way, you know. But uh I feel the horse had grace for me. That was a small mercy that that she could just do that quickly and not suffer anymore, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

That is a beautiful story. I'm really happy you told that, Barbara, because stories like that I think are ones people need to hear.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Well, they're allowed it when we haven't we as you understand, like with Mateo, you said it took a while, but eventually you were at peace with it.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

And I think that helps us, helps them too, because they feel our anxiety, sadness, pain, they feel all of what we're feeling added on to what they're physically going through. You know, so maybe in the end, when we can have some grace for like this is the journey you're on, I'm gonna be with you in it instead of trying to prevent it. You know, when it's that far. I mean, obviously, obvious things you can do, you know, fix them. But if you can't, if love can't fix it, where do we go with it, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Yeah. We change the way that we're seeing it. Yeah. Because love did fix that. Like what I feel when you just describe that, I feel love. I feel bravery, I feel connection, I feel a beautiful horse life lived. And you hit the nail on the head when you said, ah, she was there for uh a couple months, a couple weeks, a couple days. Um, the human side of our mind, that self-present preservational side of our mind, thinks a long life lived is a good life. And I don't think that's the way of it. I think it a life, beautiful life lived is by what's felt and experienced, and the depth of that. And in that, a day can be worth 10 years. You could you could be living your life 10 years long, trying to get us to a certain day when you feel something, you connect with that person in the right way, or you let go, or you have this experience out in the forest, or you're nudged by a horse the right way, and and there it is. And sometimes it takes 10 years to get to that. Yeah. And so I feel the idea, the shape of love, it's the only thing that has no shape and can be every shape. Love is in anger, uh, it's in peace, it's in it's in trust, it's even in dis distrust. Uh, and it's in connection, it's in disconnection, and it's also in when a horse can be saved, and it's when a horse can't be. I think that part of me, I always just think about and I look look at myself this way. It's the hardest one, right? Looking at myself. And when it's hard, when we don't want to look at ourselves, that's when we look at others and we blame them. But I look I look at myself and I I always look back and think, oh, I could have done better, I could have done this more differently, I could have done that differently, or what if, what if, what if I don't think that's very loving of myself. You know, I don't think that's very loving. Um I don't want to feel like I'm loved if I get it right, and I'm not if I get it wrong.

SPEAKER_02 42:31

Oh, yeah, that that that's a that's a principal foundation of of my belief. So I I hear you there. Yeah, uh you know that to sit with a undeserved grace, right? So you got it.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

And to sit with an animal or a human and say, if if you if you wish to leave, it's okay. You it's alright. You are loved, you are safe, and you are not alone, you can leave. That's love, that's the biggest love you could feel. You know, and then saying, but if you'd like to stay, what can we do to help you? And then maybe the horse then wakes up. A different horse goes, Okay, let's roll. I I want to do this and that. Okay, then let's roll.

SPEAKER_02 43:12

I do think they tell you if you're listening. I think they tell you. No, like because like you know, people go through this with their senior horses, for instance. You know, do we make him go through another winter? How are his teeth? You know, what what can we do to make his life as easy as possible as a senior horse, a senior dog, you know, whatever we're dealing with, right? And um, sometimes uh sometimes they just tell you after you've done everything you can. And they just go like, you know, Laurel said, I'm in so much pain, please, I'm done. I mean, it was so evident, you know. Uh it was a crisis, so that's different than a long-term slow thing, but it doesn't make it any easier either, you know. Uh both paths are hard. Both paths are hard. Yeah, there's that time. Do you are do you think animals are aware that they're passing?

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yes. Yeah. I feel like their mind is different than ours, as we know. You know, they're not capable of the same layered thought, the same rationality, the same forethought and afterthought, you know, that humans are capable of having, the same self-awareness from what we understand. They can't kind of step outside of themselves and observe themselves and say, like, Rocky couldn't say, hmm, Rocky is doing this right now. How do I feel about that? Is that good for Rocky? You know, they're much more what we call in the moment, which is where humans struggle or humans struggle. But where I really try to operate completely in my connection with horses is in the transcendent way of mind and body, and that's to feel I have a soul connection with them. You know, in the land of spirit, um, that happens through heart connection. And I find there's an equality in that, um, in that, you know, no two hearts and souls are the same, but the ability to communicate within that space is exactly the same. Exactly the same. It's an energetic world of feeling and intuition, um, where you're spoken um in a spoken back and forth in a land that's beyond body language. Uh, the idea of what the horse is speaking through body language, I need to know where they are in their nervous system. I need to know what they're thinking as far as their safety and their relaxation and confidence and all of that. So that's always happening there. But in that land beyond, right there, yes. The answer is yes. When Rocky was passing on his day, and I and I um asked him, you know, where are you at, buddy? And I heard, I'm ready to die.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

And it's the last thing I wanted to hear right there, right? I I didn't want to make that up. It wasn't wasn't my voice, but I and I still wasn't ready. You know, I said, I gotta, I gotta ask you again, buddy. Can you make this as clear? I need like, I need you to write this out for me in no uncertain terms. And he did not did not stutter at all, did not pause. I'm ready to die. And there was an evenness with it. There wasn't a fear, it was like it was any other day for him.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

Well, I do I do tell our our dog people, our friends, when um they've lost a dog or or an animal, and I say, Well, the best thing about loving a dog is uh they don't know tomorrow. You know, all they know is that moment that you are with them wherever you are, and if they're dying from a natural cause or you're at the vet or whatever, like you're with them, you're holding them, you're doing your your best to help with that passage. They don't know tomorrow. And so they're okay because in the whatever they're going through, they're with you if that if it works out the way, and hopefully that can be that way most of the time. I mean, as long as you can't have be helped, but you know, they're they don't know. And so, because we all feel a tremendous amount. Well, in my own experience, you know, when we lose an animal, that's hard. When we lose an animal that I feel I've done something wrong, I messed up, I made a mistake, I caused it. Oh, the and and of course, no one intentionally causes anything bad. We don't want to hurt our animals. But say, you know, um, the dog got loose and then he got hit. You know, this is years and years ago because I didn't know we were young, we didn't know, and and he got we're on a different farm and he got hit by a bus and was killed, uh, school bus, you know, on the rural road and was killed instantly, but like, how did I not know he snuck out? How did I not how did I let that happen? You know, and the the beating yourself up and the you know, the because well, yeah, he got he snuck out, didn't know he was out, find his body, you know. I mean, horrible, right? How do how does a person get through something like that where they feel they're to blame? And does the animal forgive them? I mean, is that possible? And this was a long time ago, but I still feel it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Yeah. The uh the what you mentioned about being in the moment is so freeing for you know, first and foremost, for the animals. When they pass on, they don't think, oh my god, I could have lived this long dog life, oh my god. No, they they're just aware of their life and what they're feeling in that moment and the depth of that, which grows from the prior moments lived. It's beautiful. And if us humans can combine living in the moment with the power of forethought and afterthought while fully being present in life and surrendering to that, then it's pretty cool. And then, like, when things happen like that that are unexpected, even amongst the people like I know stories as well, people who care for animals as deeply as they can be cared for and then what happens when the deer crash through the fence at night and take the fence down, and the horses then gradually make their way quietly through that opening, and one of them just goes exploring and ends up in the middle of the road, and a car comes and they hits the horse. And uh that's a true story that's happened to somebody who loves hor their loved their horses. There's no words for how deep they love their horses. One of the parts of surrendering and trusting life is that we're part of a great web of life, and it's moving mechanisms and things that are happening for other things to happen and for other doors to open. And it's one of those tougher conversations to trust all the stuff that happens and the intentions behind it are lack thereof, the care behind them or lack thereof, right? But to trust that they're all playing some sort of role, the the deepest peace we can have in life is to trust us, is to trust it. Because we'll always be faced, there's always gonna be something new where we'll be like, oh, that shouldn't have happened. But if we if we feel like it shouldn't have happened, then that means we think there's something wrong with the present moment. That the present is not as good as it could be, right? That if that didn't have happened, then life would be better now. And then if you walk around carrying that great big boulder with you that life is wrong, then no animal will feel completely at peace in your presence because they're just gonna feel like you think life is wrong. There's something wrong. And even people will feel that in you when you're killing it.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Oh, there's so much truth in what you're saying, Chris. Yeah, yeah. Um, that's a lot to have to carry. And as human beings, it's our inclination and something we must struggle with because we want to carry our story when we really should be focusing on the state. You're right. You know, we should focus on our state and not the story. So you're exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

You got it. We're to return to that.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Well, then um, one of the few last things I want to talk about um is surviving back into living. So, like we've had these the terrible grief of the experience of loving the thing, losing the pet, losing the love, losing that beautiful animal, that beautiful soul, that connection. Um, you know, does it ever feel like you start? I mean, how do I express it? Like you can't when it happens, you're kind of just getting through the day because you're you're having to process and think, and it hurts a lot. Yeah is there a time when it just starts to feel like you're living again, or is it like you know, like where does that balance come in? And um because my tendency would be like okay, put that in that box, and I've got these other things to do, and we're not gonna open that box, you know, like push down that stuff, and that's not healthy, and I'm working, getting better at living with things, right? But for a long time, you know, you do a whole bunch of regular life and responsibilities, and you're like, well, there's no time to feel that, we're gonna put that in that box, you know. Yeah, um if you're allowing yourself to feel the things and you're processing and you're doing that, you know what is how does that look with the flow and the friction like you were talking about?

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Yeah, love these questions. Things take time.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

And in this world, there's space between time, things gotta move. These harder, deeper things take time. And you can't do it until you're ready. Give yourself the grace of it can take however long it takes. But if we are sitting with it, which is the most bravest thing we could do, sitting with ourselves, feeling our feelings, whatever they are, and trying to be curious and understand them without judging them, while also finding the support we need, friends, music, reading, professionals, animals, walks in forests, whatever we gotta do, whatever we gotta do to kind of keep ourselves feeling love, whatever we can do to feel love, and it's a struggle sometimes, but it's out there, and the harder the struggle, the deeper your ability to find it when you need it. I find if we do all that, then this too shall pass. The famous saying, this too shall pass.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

Yeah, no, absolutely. So it's it's not really wrong to be happy again, then.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Oh, it's what our loved ones want. I can feel Tay Dog and Rocky right there saying, Come on, let's go. Yeah, let's go, let's get living, buddy. We're good, we're fine, let's get living. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I you can you can feel that very, very much. That you just, you know, I remember, uh, you know, this is in the book. I remember in those days, right after two weeks or so, I started to come down a little bit from that feeling with Matea, that kind of high of connection, of feeling her everywhere and everything. And I and I couldn't get out of bed. You know, you're just like, oh, I'm feeling like I'm heavy. And that what was my mind doing? Just going over what you talked about, the things that could have been different, that maybe I could have done differently or something.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

And then I said, Well, what could I do for my dog right now? And it even almost starts to get me emotional, which tells me I'm on the right course. You know, I'm like, well, what would I do for my dog right now? And I'm like, boy, she loved it when I was happy. She just loved it when I was living life, and she just wanted to go with me. And so it hit me. I'm like, Mate would want me to give myself the same love that I gave her.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

She made mistakes too. She was a living being. She sometimes didn't come when called. She sometimes did all these things. She would beg for lunches at the clinics at you know, when people were eating, even though she knew she wasn't supposed to, and a million other things, right? And she was doing things that were sometimes created like, oh my God, Tay Dog, if you, you know, right there, you spooked the other horses. They didn't know you're down that path, and you just came darting out, and somebody could have fallen off, you know, what if, right? Um, even though she knew around horse, she grew up with them as a puppy. She knew to walk real slow and everything. But I never, I never tallied this up once she died. Once she passed away. I didn't write a list out of all these things, and if only she did this, this, or that, or this. So it hit me. I'm like, all right, if I really want to help the Tay Dog, the best thing I can do is love myself the way she loved me. That's that got me up. I jumped right up out of bed and had a good day.

SPEAKER_02 55:44

This kind of relates to my next thought then. Um, do you think animals make room? And and I just give you a quick example. Um, I had a Bordercollie Aussie mix, best dog, um, Blue Merle, you know, farm dog named Apple. And um, she was just, you know, best family dog. I had children's you know, children were home at the time. Loved her. Sadly, we lost her at eight years old to a form of cancer that Aussies get. Um, you know, so she died a very quick, it was very quick. And it was horrible because, you know, my children's dog, you know, my whatever. And this was happening at the same time that um I had uh made a photo book that got published, and the the publicist wanted us to go to these book signings and da-da-da. And they want me to bring a dog. And what happened was is like Apple would have hated that kind of a you know, going to those events that just out of her element, the people, the whole thing. I wouldn't have made her do it. You know what I mean? Like it wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have asked her to do it. But the and I didn't want to borrow a dog, you know, and then my other older dog, the other older border collie, he would have been like, I'm I herd sheep, I don't go to town, you know, like this wasn't gonna be his thing. And she's like, You should really have a dog. And um it just so happened that, you know, there was this border collie puppy, 11 weeks old. She was the right place, right time, um, you know, all those things. And it was only a matter of a week, right? Um, yeah, and I was like, Did Apple make room for Pepin to come into my life? Um, Pepin is still with me, she's 12 years old now. Pepin has been a, you know, all the things I need a dog to be for in the sense of what I do for a living. You know, she's an animal actor. She did she loved the attention of being at the book signings and the public things she does, seminars with me. You know, like not that Apple couldn't do those things. I didn't ask her to, but did did, you know, is do animals make room? Do we have an open heart? We shouldn't close our heart when we lose one. Now, everyone's time schedule may be different. I'm not gonna judge, you know, when are you gonna get another dog? Oh, when are you gonna get another wife? When are you gonna get another child? You know, you don't, you know, what are you thinking, right? It's you shouldn't do that to people. Um, but do you think in some way our heart gets prepared, it learned to love, and then it's then you're if you can accept that there's gonna be lost, you can move and love the next one.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

Yes. Yes. I feel they make space and animals, since they're so in the present moment and so not connected to past or future, or how long a life should be, or wants that have to do with a year from now, they're so in the present moment that the universe, if we want to call that, or source creation God, you know, whatever somebody would be comfortable feeling about that, you know, great mystery of what all this is, I feel it moves and talks to animals very cleanly.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Oh, I love that, Chris.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Yeah, they don't get in the way of it, they don't get in the way of it, they trust it. You know, it it they they talk, and so if they feel like it's time to go, they're like, okay. And you know, that woman who lost her horse to um to that car accident, and then you would never have thought like she could handle more. But then just in months after, her other horse that was healthy just came down with this rare, rare thing out of nowhere. And it became almost statewide here in Maine. Everybody hearing about her, this woman who loved her horses so deeply and lost them so quick, two of them that were healthy so quickly and tragically. Um, there was a horse suddenly that was right there, looking for help, looking for connection, and there were so many signs just kept putting this horse in front of her, and it felt alive, it felt this open door, and that horse ended up coming to her farm, and they needed a buddy, and all of a sudden the same thing happened again.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Oh, yeah, they're they're uh yeah, they're waiting for us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:43

Yeah, right with with Rocky. I mean, it's for 21 years he was my only horse. I never felt like I needed another horse. He was my guy. We we just it was it was Chris and Rocky, that was the deal. And about two years before he died, I started to feel a mare coming. And I knew she'd be wild. So I thought Mustang, and I just could feel her out there coming. And then I met her. Her name was Tally, and um, I w I knew it right right from the beginning, but then I said, let's take it slow. So I took a month and went and saw her three times, talked to her and talked to Rocky. I'm like, Rocky, you okay with this? Are you ready not to be my only horse? I felt like he was right there, ready to go, and he was the healthiest he had been in so long. And yeah, I I felt like I didn't need to focus on his health like we had been for issues that arose from cushions. Um and the the day I said, Okay, Tally, I'm ready to do this, let's let's have you come to the farm. The very next day was when Rocky passed away. Uh, very unexpectedly, completely. And it was a colic issue, very similar to the one you experienced. And once Tally was at the barn, I realized that she didn't need to be somebody's second horse. She needed so much focus, so much time and dedication. She needed to be somebody's sole horse. Yeah. And uh and I felt how Rocky was, you know, this is a much longer part of the story and all of that, but I felt like how he was helping with this whole situation in an even more stronger way from where he was after his passing than where he would have been.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

Yeah, he's made he's kind of making room in a way, even though it wasn't what you wanted at the moment, obviously. Yeah, so we maybe Rocky was a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:27

There's a great peace that right. There's a great peace that comes with that. And I trust that. When I feel peace, then that tells me, okay, you're you're in the right direction, buddy. And there's a great peace if you look back and say, okay, this this was the length of their life. However, they passed, it can be traumatic. Boy, some of these things happen fast and happen in real um quick, hard ways sometimes. So there's trauma with that. But that's just your nervous system that's really affected by that, the that's trying to keep you alive when it sees those kind of crazy situations. But if we can get to that place where we're like, okay, there's there's a web of life here, an infinite amount of moving parts and moments, and there's some sort of intelligence to that that I'm a part of, and I just have to trust it. I have to trust it. And some relationships in this world last a moment. Somebody you meet on the street, some of them go the distance, you know, mother, father, loved one, brother, sister, romantic partnership, friendship, whether it be animal or human, some of them go the distance. And I think we just got to let go of the idea that the longer they are, the better they are. Um, you can you can meet an individual and in one hour feel so deeply connected to them, like they almost feel like the most important person in their world, human or human or animal.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

Yeah, and certainly when you meet animals like that too, you know. I mean, I'm I'm exposed to so many dogs, you can understand in my business. And there's just certain dogs that they're not even mine, but I say, This is my heart dog, this dog knows me. There's like three or four that that, you know, I mean, I I could I would kidnap them if I could, but I wouldn't want to do their owner. Um, but there's certain ones, right? And you just like within moments, the dog goes, I got you. And I'm like, I know you. And we we get it, you know, we get it with each other. And and horses can be that way too, and certainly humans, you know. Um, you meet someone and like just what you're saying, you spend an hour, you're like, oh my God, we're gonna be friends. I mean, you know, hands down, no doubt. Uh, that's a wonderful, it's a because that's that love that is so open, it's just there. Just take it, you know. So share it, take it. Very good, very good, Chris. All right. Um, we're gonna have to wrap this up as much as I love talking to you. Um, but I um I I want to talk about there. Maybe someone who's listening right now who just lost an animal that they love, and they can't imagine life without them. I mean, it's raw, it's right now, it's happening. Uh what would you want that person to know?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:02

You're in it. You're doing it. I was recently at a clinic and I ended the clinic. We always have circles at the beginning and the ending of each day at the clinics, and people were just connecting with their horses beautifully. It was so deep and and uh just having a really, really nice ending to the clinic with where people worked through in the last four days of their work together, and I just got real quiet and I looked everybody in their eyes. As my friend Fool's Crow said, touch them with your eyes, touch them with your eyes, let your heart speak through your eyes. Go there, don't be afraid, go there, and so I touched them with my eyes, and I said, I just want you all to know you're doing it. You're living life from the space of loving yourselves and loving your horses and loving the connection and then letting it all play out, letting it all play out as it will, you know, and trusting it and finding the joy in all of that and even embracing the hardships with tears, with tears, with understandings and with learnings, and then you are being brave and letting go and walking forward and walking forward still. You are doing it, and you don't gotta do anything more than that, wherever you are, wherever you are. And if you need help, ask for it, it will be there.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly, Chris. That's that's beautiful. Um the final question before we talk about how people can find you. Um after all this, after everything you've been through, And um what we've been talking about and your experiences, do you still trust life?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Oh, yes, even more deeply than before. I'm sure there's no there's no end to it. I I find that there's no moment where I got it, I got it. Um that's the full experience, that's the most trust we can have, and I got there. Nope. All of these things are meant to be endless and infinite, and to just keep growth and continuing through it, and so that trust continues to grow every day, and I'm more much more confident and relaxed and at peace with the balance of the challenging times that cause you to find out where that trust is at, where that lack of trust is. And I noticed that in the past I used to, you know, yell at the sky, right? And then only later, months later, would I finally go, okay, I think I should trust this. What I'm finding now that gets condensed. I'm like, what? Why is this happening? This doesn't seem fair. This is too much. It's too much right now. Why? And I find I catch myself, take a breath, go sit with it, find help if I need to, and go, all right. I trust why this is happening. I'm going to embrace it. Let's move forward with it. Let's make it through it. Let's see what it has to offer. Let's see what doors open. Let's see where this takes me. You can hear it switch right there. And you'll see life suddenly looks different to you. Life is new, and you realize just how much power you have, how powerful you are in your reality and your chosen reality and your responsibility for how you are seeing life and living in it. That at any moment it's not what's happening to you, it's how you're happening to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:02

Ah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:02

And that's when you start to be able to move things.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

Oh, for sure. Well, Abe Lincoln famously said something like, uh, you're you're only as happy as you make up your mind to be, you know. I paraphrase, but it's something like that. Um, so very true. Very true. So how do we find your you have two other books, of course, too. How do we find your books? How do we find you? Say we want to attend a clinic or host a clinic, or you know, tell us how how we connect with you, because I think um people are gonna want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:34

All right. So the book, yeah, it's everywhere is online. Um, if you Google Warrior Horse, Living and Dying with Animals in a Soulful and Heartfelt Way by Chris Lombard, it comes up online everywhere. Um, if people wanted a signed copy for themselves or for a loved one, they could go to my website, which is Chris Lombard, um, C H R I S L O M B-A-R-D.com and get one there. And that also, the website lets you know everything else about me, um, the work with horses and the work with people, as well as the clinics and everything coming up. Um, and then also the email to get in touch if you'd want to connect further.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

Oh, that's great. Uh, Chris, I feel like we went a lot of really good places today. Um, basically, we've been talking about animals, and I'm grateful for that, but I'm also aware that um all of this res can be understood in the same way to apply to people. And um, luckily I have not had any terrible losses, been so blessed, but um, it helps me prepare that uh I'm gonna have to trust that process when there is something that's you know, and I mean what could be worse than losing an animal? Well, it can be worse, maybe, you know. So that's all bad. But so that but knowing that um we can trust if we have grace for ourselves, you know, belief in something that helps us get through it, asking for help, like you mentioned, all those things. Um, like you say, just you're doing it. What a what a beautiful way to look at it. It's okay, you're doing it. And I think that's a beautiful note to end on. We are all just trying to do it, and we can say to ourselves, hey, but at least you're doing it.

unknown 1:10:14

You know.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:16

So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:17

It's all love, Chris. Yeah, if you're feeling all this stuff, it means you love deeply. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:23

And that's the climate. And thank you so much. Yeah, that's what we're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:26

Just want to say thank you, Barbara, for what you do out there in the world as well, even just with this podcast right here, allowing platforms for people to speak about these relationships with animals and what we go through, and uh how that's elevating the conversation out there. Thank you for this.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:42

Oh, that's very kind. Thank you again.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:47

Thanks, Barbara. We'll see you later.